h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Islam and Women - A932663
Author: Muzaakboy - U208494

If any one knows how I can get back in to my other account due to them sending me a new password which does not work then please let me know so I can edit this. Or maybe I should just rewrite it.

Hi Muzaakboy!

This is a fascinating entry. I've a lot I'd like to say about it. But first, I'd suggest you contact Abi or Mina and tell them about your problems logging in. If they can't sort it, you can create a new entry and cut and paste from this one to your new one. If you use the Test feature (put Test followed by the number of the entry into the Address Bar), you can see all the GuideML of this entry. It is then possible to paste the entire thing complete with titles, bold, italic etc. into your new entry.

Now to discuss the entry. There are a number of words spelt wrongly, but I won't point them out unless they are important.

1. I don't think the Historical Perspective is relevant. Nobody doubts that most religions and cultures treated women very badly in the past. What is being discussed here is how woman are treated by Islam now. You can't excuse Islam's treatment of women by saying that it is more enlightened than everything else that was around at the time of the prophet.

2. You use the term God in some places and Allah in others. I think God would be better because the entry is in English.

3. You say that the Quran provides positive proof. It does not. It makes statements about the equality of women, but these are not proof in the normal sense of the word. You may believe them, but I don't consider that anything has been proved.

4. I find the use of (pbuh) is tiresome and detracts from the article. If what the prophet says is right, you don't need to praise his name and I don't think there is any place for that in the Edited Guide.

5. The sentence which starts "And when the female buried alive is questioned" seems to be a bad translation. I can't understand what it means. It seems to say that after you bury a female child, you should ask her what her crime was. Perhaps you would search for a better translation of this.

6. mailers - this is a misprint, but I don't know what you intended.

7. untitled - this should be "entitled". This is an important one because it changes the meaning completely.

8. "Islam also gives women the ability to work like men do as long as it does not interfere to her roles as a mother and wife to the point that she neglects important duties" - this is enough to completely damn Islam in my opinion and makes everything else you say in the entry irrelevant. What this says is that women do not have control over their own lives but must live the life that God or Allah has set for them, producing babies and looking after their husband. This proves for me the case that Islam is an oppressor of women.

9. You do not mention the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia. I've been told that women are not allowed to drive cars, they are not allowed to dress in any way they like and that if a woman commits a crime, her husband is responsible. Given that Saudi Arabia is the centre of Islam, I would assume that all of these attrocious practises are considered to be OK by the Muslim scholars. How does that fit in with what you are saying in this entry?

I look forward to your comments.

I will just deal with your last two points.

Firstly point 8. Actually what it means is if the wife and huband decide to have a child and she is looking after it it then she can still get a job as long as it means the baby is left at home unatended and neglected. If they get a grand parent to look after the child thats fine. Any way the point is that the man is most likely to be working at a job so he may not be able to look after the child as he is at work earning for the woman. Then the woman who may not have a job is looking after the child. With me so far. Now would it be fair for her to go and get a job that she keeps all the money for her self and leaves the baby neglected. Remember the man buys her every thing she wants and buys her food etc. So In islam there is no need for the woman to work. In fact if she wishes she can stay at home and do nothing, or she may look after the house or she can get a job herself. But there is no financial burden on the woman so if they have a child usually she will stay at hoe and look after it like most familys. But if she gets a job then she has to bear in mind that she has a baby that needs looking after etc.
Heres the cool bit if the wife wishes she can get a job and the husband can work less if thats what they agree to.
Or as already said she can get some one (hired or relative) to look after the baby.
How does this condem Islam. All its saying is remember you have a job. If a mother in the rest went of and got a job ignoring the baby I'm sure the point of free woans rights wont come in to it. As the babys life is in danger. Its the sae thing. What it is asking women is so you have a child and want to go back to work please bear in mind that the baby needs looking after and other things you used to do around the house.
I don't know how clear all that is as I am a bit sleepy.

Any way point 9 Women in Saudi Arabia. Sipally put yes it is supposed to be under Islamic law but it does not follow it properly. You will find if you go over there some time that some areas are bad others are good. The media etc focus on the bad regions. Simply put yes it has two very important citys but that does not mean it is following true Islamic law.

Point 5 I will address this now. Right its talking future tense. At the time the Quran was revealed it was custom for female babys to be buried alive as they where seen as a burden. This Ayaat (verse) is referring to on the day of resurrection. We will all be bought back to life and stand in front of God. He will ask us questions to see how honest and good we where. What is being said is that when god questions these girls who where buried alive what are they to say. They will go to Paradise because of it. Then we he questions those who did this crime he will ask for what reason did they die. And they will not be able to answer that question as there is only one reason and it is not a good one. So they who do it will go to the hell fire.

Oh and as for the (pbuh) It means peace and blessings upon him and must be said after the name of every profit or important religious person. Like Jesus (pbuh) it can not be ommited.

Adib

Thanks for your replies. You might think about adding some or all of what you said here into the entry, so that the readers will be able to understand.

I hate lap tops. I have no spell checker on this thing. Better get the dictionary out.

Adib

Ok what do you think know. Did I get all the spelling mistakes?

Adib

Hi Adib, I'm sorry, somehow your reply with the question about spelling mistakes got buried in my list of conversations and I never saw it.

There are still a few spelling mistakes, which I will point out to you later.

Have you made any changes to the content, as a result of what we discussed?

A little. Just going to do a bit more in a bit. I.e. later to day.


Adib

OK. Here are some spelling and grammar mistakes. I'll show each mistake followed by what it should be.

farther --> father
accompanied with --> accompanied by
beatings of the husband --> beatings by the husband
them self's --> themselves
decent traced through males --> descent was traced through males
in Gods eyes --> in God's eyes
So there lord --> So their lord
a additional --> an additional
thay --> they
these to verses --> these two verses
there daughters --> their daughters
guestionong --> questioning
heaven Heaven --> heaven
responcible --> responsible
and is so condemned --> and so is condemned
a education --> an education
strenth --> strength
there wifes --> their wives
misconceived --> misunderstood
woman in not pregnant --> woman is not pregnant
cloth her self or children --> clothe herself or her children
and is hers to do with --> and it is hers to do with
cloth and buy food --> clothe and buy food

Ok Thanks my English spelling is rubbish.

Adib

There done all the spelling. Thanks alot. I have also added a bit more info in some places.

Adib

I hope this is better know. It would be good to actually get some thing in the edited guide that holds the truth about Islam laugh.

If anyone has any siggestions or points please do not hesitate as I will be greatfull.

Adib

I thought that this is a good start for and entry, but it doesn't really address some of the issues I have about the role of women in Islamic countries.

Take the example of women being covered up. Why does it seem to be required that women cover themselves? Why, when an extreme regime such as the Taliban is in power, do we see women covered completely? Are women that don't cover themselves afforded less respect? Why are visitors (such as journalists) also required to cover up - they are not muslims so why must they conform?

When I have been to muslim countries it has appeared to me that women are not afforded the same value and status as men - you say that in these places they are not truely following Islam and this behaviour is cultural, but this seems a very common attitude. A trivial example of this is that when I was on holiday in Tunisia, male staff in hotels and restaurants (I never saw female staff other than cleaners) tended to address only my boyfriend. They would not bring anything to the table or allow us to order anything unless he was there. If I was away from the table they did not wait for my return but would address him alone. As I say, this is a trivial example, but one that underlined my lack of status compared to my boyfriend. A similar thing, but to a lesser extent, happened in Turkey. I am aware that equality of status is only recent in the west but it does not feel that there is much drive for progress towards it in muslim countries.

These are some of the questions I'd like to see addressed in the entry in more detail than to say that this behaviour is not in line with Islam. How do we separate the culture from the religion when the religion is, in a lot of ways, dictating the culture?

I agree with Gnomon that to say in the entry
"Islam also gives women the ability to work like men do as long as it does not interfere to her roles as a mother and wife to the point that she neglects important duties"
suggests that a womans primary role is as mother and wife - her needs and wants are secondary to those of her family and husband. This is very damning in my eyes. You suggest in the conversation above that this really means she cannot cause actual neglect of her children but surely this is equally the responsibility of the father too? What exactly are her responsibilities as a wife that could be interfered with by her working?

Finally, what is the attitude of Islam towards birth control? I would argue that being able to control one's fertility is the single most empowering factor in a woman's life - it means she can control her situation better financially, socially and emotionally. I have heard that it is against Islam to use birth control, and that seems to me to ensure that a woman cannot make free decisions about her life.

Thank you for attempting to explain this to us!

k

Right then I have no time to go into a talk about this at this time (may I call you Kelli for short?). I will try to answer your questions in full on Monday night as I have to go to my nans birthday which means I am going to be away from my lap top and Pc for a few days. See I'm talking to you. Any way Actually I hate it when Muslims do what your talking about there of ignoring the Woman. There are several sects in Islam and have different view points. Now anyway as me being a sunni and a lot of my friend s we have discussed these points be fore I will give you more on Monday ok.

Adib

Kelli will be fine

Don't worry, I don't demand answers now! I'll look forward to your responses when you have time, and look forward to any updates to your entry.


k

I have a couple of extra questions relating to women that came up through watching Channel 4's program on Hajj at the weekend.

Why are women not allowed to perform Hajj on their own, why must they be accompanied by a man?

One of the young women, who's faith was deepening as Hajj grew closer, decided that she needed to dress more appropriately for Islam and set about having new clothes made that covered her completely - she said that according to the rules she should wear something that totally hides her body and does not show any part of her shape or sillohette. They then showed some young women in Pakistan that were wearing more shapely dresses (although still modest), and they said that if a man looked at them and thought unclean thoughts because he can see their shape then that was a problem for the man, not one for the woman. Who is right here according to Isalm?


k

Take the example of women being covered up. Why does it seem to be required that women cover themselves? Why, when an extreme regime such as the Taliban is in power, do we see women covered completely? Are women that don't cover themselves afforded less respect? Why are visitors (such as journalists) also required to cover up - they are not muslims so why must they conform?

The reason why Muslim women are asked to cover up is a little complicated. Of course I could just say that God has told us to but that would not be a happy answer for you. Well Here I go anyway. There is a Sura that says that a believing woman should toss her garments over her body. This means that women should cover there bodys, arms and legs. It does not mean the head. Actully what is asked is that women should cover there bosums with the scarf. So it is not assential to have it over your head problem is not very many people actually are aware of that fact. Any way the reason for this is because the cloths the women where wairing would show quite a bit of cleverage if you know what I mean so it was asked to cover that area with your scarfs. Any way as for the reason well in Islam you are not allowed to have sex with some one before marriage and have thoughts like that in his head when looking at a woman. Now do you think it would be easy for a man to walk past some beautifull woman showing of her arms, legs and tops of her bosums to just ignore it and not even think about it? The answer is No. Women are asked to over them selfs up so men do not lust over them and lear at them where ever they walk. Plus how many women in Islamic dress are raped each year compared to the west? A fraction I mean very few. Any way that is one sort of reason for it. There is no sexual lust over her meaning that (No offence to you blokes out there) she is spoken to as a Human being and treated like one. Where as most men act wierd around beautifull women revealing them selfs meaning they try to impress her and look at her as more as a goal to get in bed rather than a real person. I'm not saying all men are like that but a lot are.

I do not know what went wrong on your holidays but I say this. The problem lies with the fact that people even Muslims take things out of perspective. Meaning you are allowed to talk to women who are strangers but only if you have a reason to like getting your order.
Both the above things are the same for men and women. Men have to keep them selfs covered up but not to the same extent as Men but that is because women are better in control of there sexual desires than men any way. Any way thing is I have lots of Female Muslim friends and we do met up and talk but never alone. We always have two or three of her friends with us. That is all. Basically what Islam tries to do is make it so that a Muslim and a man are not alone where bad things like sex before marriage can happen.
I will go in to more detail some other time as your all probabley taking every thing I am saying out of context.

'Islam also gives women the ability to work like men do as long as it does not interfere to her roles as a mother and wife to the point that she neglects important duties' I thought I had already addressed this any way. To be blunt about it. The man works and gets all the money for the family. The woman if she works keeps all thaT MONEY and does what she likes with it. If she does not have a job and the husband is working would it be fair for him to come home and do all the house work. Yes he has to help with the house work but would it be fair for him to do it all after he has worked all day for money to buy the food, pay the bills, pay for all expensise and buying her wife what she wants be it cloths or what ever, while she has a job and neglects the things she used to do. What it basically means is if she is going to get a job talk with the husband about the house work she may have been doing before and what they are going to do about it know eg like hiring a maid.



'her needs and wants are secondary to those of her family and husband'

What needs are you talking about her. The Husband buys her cloths S.T's and every thing else she wants if he can afford it. If she wants a job then she can have one there is no problem there. Her rights do come before the childrens and so does the farthers. Both of them have to sacrifice things for a childs sake not just the wife. If they can get some one to look after the child then it is fine for them both to work.

'You suggest in the conversation above that this really means she cannot cause actual neglect of her children but surely this is equally the responsibility of the father too?'

How can a man working all day look after a child? When he is home yes he looks after the child but he can not do that when he is out getting all the money for the house hold.

Muzaakboy, explaining things is a very difficult thing. A good explainer needs to be understand the thing he is explaining, but he also needs to understand the person he is explaining it to.

You no doubt understand the teachings of your god. But you don't appear to understand the West's attitude to women at all. Until you do, you won't be able to explain to us why Islam actually treats women equally despite all appearances.

Here in the West, we don't consider it equal if people say women are good at something and therefore they have a responsibility to do that thing, even if they want to do something else.

We do not consider it fair to have to do something because Allah/God says it is necessary. Those of us who don't believe in Allah/God should not have to be forced to do it just because other people do believe in Allah/God. Everybody is entitled to their belief, as long as the practise of that belief does not interfere with anybody else.

When you understand this, then perhaps you can start to explain Islam to us. I had hoped that this entry could be suitable for the Edited Guide if you had made a few changes to it, but you seem to be reluctant to modify what you said originally. The entry needs answers to the questions we have asked here in this conversation.

Muzaakboy, thank you for trying to explain all this to me, but I am afraid there are several things I still do not understand. There are several things I want to ask about so I will address each thing in separate posts so it is easier keep track of and other points do not get lost.

I find your comment about rape extemely offensive. I do not know if these views are your own or are part of Islam, but I will try to explain to you why I find it offensive, and why as a non-islamic secular western woman (I don't claim to speak for all of them, just the ones I know) I take such issue with women being required to cover up.

Your belief seems to be that men are weak, and cannot help but to act on every sexual thought that enters their heads. Because men are weak it is the responsibility of women to dress so that a man's ability to control himself is not tested, women on the other hand are assumed to have better control of themselves. If a woman dresses so that she is not completely covered (eg with bare arms, or a short (knee length) skirt) and receives unwelcome attention then you seem to think that this is the fault of the woman rather than the fault of the man bothering her. Your comment about rape suggests to me that you think uncovered women who are raped somehow brought the attack on themselves. This makes me fearful of spending any time in Islamic societies, as I will not cover myself - maybe then the men will feel justified in attacking me.

Actually I would dispute that there are fewer women raped because they are covered. The number of rapes reported in the west has been increasing for several years, however, there have been years of campaigns to encourage these poor women to come forward, and assure them that they are not to blame for what happened to them. Campaigns to tell them that the fault lies with the man that raped them, and what they were wearing at the time has no bearing - if they say 'no' to sex a man should respect that, regardless of whether she was wearing a short skirt and skimpy top. In a society where the implied blame is on the woman (for not dressing modestly enough) it would be very surprising if rapes were ever reported. Just because they are not reported does not mean that they do not happen.

I have heard the argument that women are treated more as humans if they are desexualised by their clothing, but again that is a problem for men, not women. I would expect to be treated equally, as a human, regardless of my attire. I find it offensive to suggest that women cannot be treated as equals if you can see their arms, or their cleavage. Wouldn't it be better to attempt to change the attitude of men so they do not see uncovered women as available for sex, and see them as humans all the time?

"I will go in to more detail some other time as your all probabley taking every thing I am saying out of context" I am trying not to take what you say out of context, if I have misunderstood then please let me know. I am trying to understand your culture's attitude towards women - which you say is one of equality but that appears to be far from equal to my non-religious eyes.

Muzaakboy,

You say that Eve is not blamed for Adam's sin. But also say that she is not really blamed for her own sin either. More of the responsibility lies with Adam.

Now, tell me again, women are supposed to equal, right?