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A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 1

bobstafford

Entry: The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse - A87904362
Author: bobstafford - U3151547

This is the first part of the basic history of the unique collaboration between the horse and man.
Other sections will be added depending on the interest, advice and comments in PR.
Thanks


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 2

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

I think this is an intersting start but I feel it could need some more depth. smiley - smiley

I would put a footnote with a time-frame to 'Pleistocene'. All in all a few numbers would be good for people who are not so good at history. Like when lived the Celts/Romans/Greeks etc.

Could you give us an idea about the size of early vs later horses?


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 3

Bluebottle

Ancient Greek Legend
Once upon a time men and gods were exploring Greece when they found a spot that would be ideal for a city and temple. Two gods claimed the area and said it should be dedicated to them, Poseidon and Athena. They agreed to hold a competition to see who would get the spot, the god to create the most useful thing for mankind would get the temple and city. So Poseidon went first and created the horse smiley - pony*. Athena went next and created the Olive, and was declared the winner. So the temple and city were named Athens in her honour.

Which just goes to show how legends are a load of smiley - ponysmiley - bleep, and I demand a rematch. A horse is definitely far more useful. I mean, olives taste like smiley - bleep and only grow naturally in limited climates, around the Mediterranean, California, some parts of South America, South Africa and Australia. Horses, meanwhile, can be found everywhere on smiley - earth except Antarctica and the northernmost areas of the Arctic Circlesmiley - brr. Horses are intelligent, loyal companions – there are many cases of brave horses that have risked themselves to save lives in circumstances in which an olive would just sit there. If you were planning on a strenuous journey, you wouldn't be able to carry vital equipment on the back of an olive. If the Grand National smiley - pony race was replaced with olive racing, it just wouldn't be the same. There are many statues in public places all around smiley - earth of famous people on horseback, and none I know of of people sitting on an olive. And the expression 'I'm so hungry I could eat a horse' doesn't have the same impact if it is 'I'm so hungry I could eat an olive'. And there isn't an annoying character in 'Popeye' called smiley - pony.

Mind you, I've always thought Richard Branson should go into the olive business and sell Virgin virgin olive oil.

<BB<

* As with all good myths there are contrasting accounts: Poseidon is also said to have created the smiley - pony in order to impress Demeter, who challenged him to create the perfect animal. It took him so long to create the horse that when he did he was over his crush and not interested in her any more. Alternatively he is said to have given Athens a salt spring rather than a smiley - pony.


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 4

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

smiley - roflsmiley - applause


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 5

bobstafford

Thanks Tav I have been creating this periodicity, This is just part 1 and is pre-history and therefore mainly informed speculation.
Even so the evolution of the early horse is possibly the most interesting aspect.
If due to size it might be better split into several entries it is simply because of the potential size of a single entry.

This entry is a merely a sketch of the horses development of the horse, and may well need additional information, not more speculation.

Any ideas at this stage would be welcome. smiley - smiley

I look forward to any your comments.


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 6

bobstafford

Sitting on olives could give you piles BB
I presume you think this is a reasonably good startsmiley - winkeye


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 7

bobstafford

PS BB
The legend may be useful built in to the text possibly without the olive legend.

smiley - ok


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 8

bobstafford

Hi Tav is this what you had in mind


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 9

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Oh yes, that's good! Could you also add some kind of information about how big exactly the first horse ancestor you mention was? I think it would help people to visualize the changes in size which you describe.

Also maybe mention there were other ancestors which were not strictly horses yet which were really rather tiny (as far as I remember)? But that's your decision, if you don't think it fits in that's ok.

I agree with you that if the Entry gets too long it should be split up. So far you only have a bit over 700 words. 1200 may be ideal for an Entry, depending on the topic my personal goal is often 1500, because sometimes you just need some additional explainations to make things clear.


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 10

SashaQ - happysad and 'slightly mad'

This is an interesting topic - I did some horse riding in my youth, so it is good to learn more about the animal.

Your early paragraphs are very dense with information and could perhaps do with a bit more to set the scene, as Tav says...

Questions I asked when I was reading are:

smiley - pony So there is evidence that horses were only used for food in the beginning?

smiley - pony Perhaps better to use the word 'human' in places where it is not necessarily certain that only men were involved?

smiley - pony What does it mean about 'summer hunting grounds'?

smiley - pony What is the significance of stirrups?

I'm not fully clear about the timeline - you mention the Romans and 100AD, but then the main section ends with the Fall of Troy, which predated Rome...

Very interesting about the horsepower of chariots smiley - ok Greek Vase Paintings depict several horses cleverly, but I didn't actually count the number of heads and legs when I was studying paintings from different periods, so I will look out for that next time I see some Vases smiley - ok


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 11

Caiman raptor elk - Yes, but what if the box is REALLY big?

I like the way this entry is going with regard to content, but it needs some polishing and trimming for readablity.

Example:

Owing to the development of basic roads pack horsed the first wheeled vehicles appeared and with that development, this would have exposed the fact the basic horse of the time was too small, no bigger then what we now call a pony.

Becomes:

Owing to the development of basic roads the first wheeled vehicles appeared. This development exposed the fact that the basic horse of the time was too small, no bigger than what we now call a pony.

"Bread" is no part of the verb "to breed" (you can eat it though)


I agree that some more time references would increase the value.


Good luck


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 12

SashaQ - happysad and 'slightly mad'

How are you getting on with this, bob?


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 13

bobstafford

Hello It is coming along slowly just getting enough time to finish it smiley - smiley


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 14

SashaQ - happysad and 'slightly mad'

smiley - ok


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 15

Bluebottle

Just thought I'd mention that the University of Exeter and University of East Anglia have embarked on a 3-year study of mediæval warhorses from across the UK and Europe. It aims to answer the questions:

smiley - ponyDid the Norman Conquest see the widespread introduction of new breeds of horse, or was the development of the warhorse a more incremental process rooted in the late Anglo-Saxon period?
smiley - ponyHow was the development of knighthood in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries reflected in horse apparel?
smiley - ponyDoes the archaeological record provide evidence for the celebrated ‘great horse’ of the 14th century?
smiley - ponyHow do these trends relate to the changing nature and geography of horse studs?

http://medievalwarhorse.exeter.ac.uk/

<BB<


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 16

Bluebottle

Bob, have you considered adding a few headers to divide the text into separate sections?

Also, I'm summarising the horsey highlights below, but the entry's timeline is:

smiley - ponyHorse created (Pleistocene: 3,000,000BC+)
smiley - ponyWheel invented (c 3,500BC?)
smiley - ponyChariot invented (c 2000BC?)
smiley - ponyCeltic Britain (750-12BC)
smiley - ponyEmpires in China (221BC-1912)
smiley - huh'Empires in Africa' (Do you mean Egypt? Carthage? Elsewhere?)
smiley - ponyGreece (8th Century BC – 146BC)
smiley - ponyRome (depending on how you define 'Roman Empire', at most generous 753BC - 1453AD, only 43AD-410AD in Britain)
smiley - ponyStirrup invented (100 AD)
smiley - huh'All this before the Fall of Troy' 1300-1100 BC

Not all the above was before the Fall of Troy?

<BB<


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 17

bobstafford


Did the Norman Conquest see the widespread introduction of new breeds of horse, or was the development of the warhorse a more incremental process rooted in the late Anglo-Saxon period?

"The development was mainly due to the development of weapons and armour"

How was the development of knighthood in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries reflected in horse apparel?

"The horses' had armour to protect the weak point between the eyes, and the thick hangings was to protect the body and legs. The Knights used the hangings to proclaim themselves".

Does the archaeological record provide evidence for the celebrated ‘great horse’ of the 14th century?
pony How do these trends relate to the changing nature and geography of horse studs?

"Yes if you search the records, remember the horses are still with us as the Shire and other heavy working breeds today


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 18

bobstafford

All this before the Fall of Troy' 1300-1100 BC

Perhaps

Most of this acheived before the Fall of Troy' 1300-1100 BC

is better
smiley - smiley


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 19

Bluebottle

How is this coming along, Bob? Any sign of Part II?

<BB<


A87904362 - The rise and fall and rise again of the Heavy Horse

Post 20

Bluebottle

I've had an e-mail from Bob in which he says he cannot sign in at the moment and so cannot edit this in person at present, and, I quote the rest of his reply below:

"I would put a footnote with a time-frame to 'Pleistocene'. All in all a few numbers would be good for people who are not so good at history. Like when lived the Celts/Romans/Greeks etc.
"Could you give us an idea about the size of early vs later horses?"
A lot of the evidence has been lost however the first domesticated horses were "Shetland" size, man made the horse larger, as his needs developed he breed the larger breeds that eventually produced todays Shire Horse.
Chariots became obsolete when horses became able to carry a fully grown man or woman and the Shires ancestor was the Knights heavy warhorse. These were to be rendered obsolete by gunpowder.

I hope that answers his question"

<BB<


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