h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Gentlemen (and women),

A few more reponses please, so that we know what to do next.

I have tried chasing up Emma Corlett to no avail, so it looks like the WMN is dead. If anyone wants to try that avenue one more time, go for it, but I will not.

Devonian's opinion is that it would be good to get a campaign involving schools etc.. going - should we approach DCC (and Plymouth /Torbay unitary councils)??

Or, do we talk to Mr Flag first?

A pity about the WMN.

My vote would be talk to Mr Flag. Lets here what they have to say.

A competition with schools etc.. would be good, but it doesn't sound like the WMN are all that enthusiastic - we may have to go to the DCC ourselves.

The only problem with getting the Devon schools involved is that we are likely to end up with hundreds of designs, with still no satisfactory way of selecting a winner, and I don't think we should go back to Mr. Flag until we have come up with a preferred design.

As WMN has not shown any enthusiasm despite Kerswell's best efforts (many thanks are due to him), I have been carrying out a web search to see if there are any Devon organisations that may be able to help by organising a poll, which would be representative of interested Devonians. I have found one organisation, which may be suitable; it is the Devon History Society, details of which can be found by entering its name in a search engine (e.g. Google.co.uk). I have no idea how many members this society has, but at least we would know that they all have an interest in Devon and its history. Let me know what you think about that proposal. If we did something like that, we would still have to publicise the outcome, and maybe that is where Mr. Flag may be of some help.


Plymouth Exile

I quite like the idea of rounding out what we are doing with the existing designs, before we try a whole new competition.

I would be happy to have a poll, and perhaps the Devon History Society may help. However given the historical nature of their name (and a brief review of their site) I suspect it may not be their thing. It agree they may be worth trying, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Possibly the Sunday Independent group might be worth a try first - and why not ask Mr Flag their views (after all we don't have to take their advice)

My other thought would be to approach the DCC and the Plymouth and Torbay Unitary Authorities to see if they will run a joint poll, or failing that they are the obvious candidates to either

(i) adjudicate on our designs and/or
(ii) organise a school competition, which they will then take to a popular poll.

After all we have demonstrated an interest, and the WMN's only major problem appears to be that they were not involved up front.

Cheers

We need to 'reinvigorate' the flag issue, or it will fade away else.

In an email between Plymouth Exile and myself it was suggested that we approach the Sunday Independent Group.

Any contrary views?

Any volunteers? I will do it if necessary, but I am a way away and I can only do that via email.


Ozzie Exile

Having had time to 'cool down' from the WMN episode - I am happy to contact the Sunday Independent.

Anyone wanting to do this with a passion, please shout now, otherwise I will contact them - probably over the weekend.

Anyone have any suggestions on a change to the strategy?

Kerswell,

Thanks for volunteering to put yourself in the hot seat again. I had thought of volunteering, but they might have thought it a bit odd for someone living 300 miles away to be requesting a Devon Flag vote.

As for tactics, I think it would be a good idea not to give them the impression that they were some sort of second choice. Perhaps if we put it that a number of Devonians on the BBC Devon web site had discovered a lot of enthusiasm for a Devon Flag, and had come up with a short list of designs. In order to reach a far bigger Devon audience than the BBC Devon web site could muster, we had chosen the Independent as the best means of reaching the people of Devon. In that way, they would get the impression that the Independent was our first choice means of reaching out to the Devon people.

I hope things go better this time, and thanks for all your efforts.


Plymouth Exile

I have now contacted the Sunday Indy and I will let you know if they show any interest.

Thanks

No response to date from the Sunday Independent.

I will chase them up

An update.

The follow up emails I sent the Sunday Independent with the designs etc... seem to have bounced (three times now) - so I will confirm the email address with them and send again.

Keith

Thanks for all your efforts Keith. If I can be any help (from a distance of 350 miles), please let me know.

Plymouth Exile

Guys (and girls),

Another update.

I have found out that the Indy email server has had a problem, and hence the 'bounced' emails.

After contacting them, I have now been able to send the detail directly to the sub-editor (Nikki Rowland), so....fingers crossed.

I will let you know dreckly!

Gentlefolk,

As you may have suspected, I have had no luck with the Sunday Independent.

No reasons given, but every time I rang no-one seemed to know about it.

I kept resending the info and following up with a call, but obviously I was getting the brush off.

Sorry

Kerswell,

Sorry to hear you had no luck.

So - where to from here?

The options seem to be

1 Let it rest
2 Contact Mr Flag
3 Contact Devon County Council, or Devon Tourism

Although the momentum has been lost I still believe we should persevere - but obviously the print media is not the way.

Your thoughts?

What about the red Wyvern,in the centre of the celtic cross design?
I have read that it was an early heraldic symbol of the kings of dumnonia. ( A Wyvern is a 2 legged Dragon with wings, as opposed to the four legged Welsh one) This would surely be a seperate and distinct emblam for Devon, not english like a lion or a welsh dragon.

Researcher 215612,

Unfortunately, the Wyvern has already been claimed as the symbol for Wessex. We from Devon do not consider ourselves to be part of Wessex, so including the Wyvern would not be appropriate.

However, welcome to this board. Are you a Devonian? Maybe you could help us to find a way of determining the most popular flag design, from the four short-listed. How about getting yourself a nickname (by clicking on 'Researcher 215612' above your posting and filling in the details).

Many thanks for your posting. We hope to hear from you again soon.

Regards,

Plymouth Exile

In terms of 'where to from here' with respect to the Devon Flag, I would support contacting Mr Flag. I admit to feeling somewhat despondent at the moment.

I was interested to hear of the Wyvern being a possible symbol of Dumnonia. Like Plymouth Exile, this is the first I have heard of this.

A quick search on the web indicates the word 'Wyvern' is of Saxon derivation, and means serpent. I found no direct links to Dumnonia.

However, I did find the following link which indicates that the Wyvern predates the Welsh dragon, and was used by the Scots!

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/membersguide/boilerplate.html

So, whilst remaining skeptical, I would be interested in any evidence that the symbol was 'purloined' by the Saxons (which would be feasible as the Wessex kingdom would have taken on existing symbols to be acceptable to the Celtic peoples), so I await any information.

Thanks for the thoughts on the wyvern,

The information was taken from a book called 'Basic Heraldry' by Steven Friar + John Ferguson, published by Herbet.

An edited extract from page 12 of the book as follows:

The Dragon Standard of the Roman Cohort Survuived in Britain as the 'Burning Dragon of Cadwallader....and later in the arms attributed to .... the ancestral line of King Arthur Pendragon. These early dragons were 2 legged creatures(now described as wyverns),though in post Medieval heraldry the 4 legged version is more numerous.......A single red dragon in the civic hraldry of Wales (Y ddraig goch)is ubiquitous, though early chroniclers describe it as being of 'ruddy gold' rather than red..... It seems lightly that the West Saxons usurped the golden dragon in defiance of the native Celts...

From this I understand that early celts when referring to a dragon, it could have been either 2or 4 legged and the name 'wyvern' did come later, probably explaining the anglo-saxon roots to the name. obviously i am relying on the information from this book, but i have recently e-mailed the 'early British Kingdoms' website to get more historical info. Its wonderful to see many enthusiastic people interested in this project. Whatever design is used I hope it will do devonians justice and also represent some celtic element!

thanks

An interesting suggestion about the '2 legged dragon' or Wyvern.

As Plymouth Exile suggests, I believe that the fact that the current 'Wessex Regionalists' have used (or continued to abuse) this symbol makes it difficult for it to be used for the purposes of Devon.

Nevertheless, an interesting piece of information.

As to 'where from here' for the Devon Flag, I do believe we need outside help, if only becuase the BBC poll was so close, and at the end the very last day voting was so obviously distorted.

I would support talking with Mr Flag, although I think we may have to settle for a simple adjudication (in some form) as another popular vote may be difficult.

By the way - does "London Devonish" know if the association of that name still exists in London?? I know an organisation of a like name used to exist - as it did for the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Kerswell for all his efforts and persistence in trying to motivate the Devon newspaper media into getting a Devon flag vote organised. I know that it must have felt like a thankless task but, if it is any consolation, Kerswell should know that we all appreciate his efforts.

I agree with Ozzie Exile that we definitely need outside help to resolve the flag issue. However, a simple adjudication would lack one very important element, that of publicity. Even if we managed to settle on one flag design (by means of adjudication), and the Mr. Flag organisation was prepared to make it, without the sort of publicity that a Devon-wide vote would have brought, how many Devonians would know of its existence, let alone buy it. It has been suggested that organisations involved in Devon tourism may be able to help, but I would suggest that the flag market would not be aimed at tourists, but at the Devonians themselves (you don't see Emmets displaying St. Piran's Flags in Cornwall). Likewise, interest in a Devon flag would come from Devonians, not Grockles. I would suggest that what we are looking for is a publicity orientated organisation, which caters for (and interacts with) the people of Devon. Does anyone know of such an organisation? I would hate to see a chosen flag design put into production, but not sell because Devonians didn't know about its existence.

Turning to London Devonish's information about the Wyvern, I found it to be quite fascinating and informative. As London Devonish is obviously interested in Devon's Celtic history, I strongly recommend that he/she should join us in discussion at the BBC Devon, Sense of Place, Celtic Devon web site:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-nireland/A718102

I would also suggest that he/she should visit Ozzie Exile's excellent 'Dewnans, Celtic Devon' site:-

http://www.users.senet.com.au/~dewnans/

which presents a fascinating distillation of most of the topics which have come to light on the Celtic Devon site.

Welcome aboard London Devonish.


Plymouth Exile