h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Justin .

As there are no reliable historical accounts of your God I have been delving into the Bible. This book you claim is the inerrant Word of your God. I am not here to dispute that claim, but I will use this inerrant source to prove that what you represent is not good, but evil.

Please examine the following passages and consider, was it your God or your Devil that said:

1. "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

2. "I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."

3. "Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you."

4. "Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."

5. "Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women..."

6."...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun."

7. "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

8. "Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."

9. Was it God, or the devil, who killed every man, woman, child and animal on earth because he lost his temper with them?

10. Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant?

11. Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah?

12. Was it God or the devil, who gave the surviving 32,000 virgin girls of the Midianites to the rapacious Jewish army (see 7 above)?

Now why have I done this? Why have I exposed these normally glossed over parts of your Bible, to the public gaze?

Is it because I hate all Christians? Nope.
Is it because I am an enemy of your God? Nope.

The answer is Dogma. It is the reason I left the Catholic church and why I am an Apostate. These are not the Words of your God Justin, they are the folk tales of a desperate and much oppressed people. God does not exist in your Bible, for that book is just the suviving and politically-acceptable (to the Roman Emperor Constantine, and latterly King James) fragments.

To find the divine spirit one must cast aside dependence on the dogma of 2,000 years and reach inside, deep inside. Look upon the world with the eyes of a child and you can see the divine all around you.

The divine spirit is about joy and love, not bigotry and hatred. It is about acceptance and living, not preaching and denial. Whether you believe this divine spirit flows from Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, Krishna, Buddha, the Universal Harmonic, Odin, the Awen, Gaia, Cerridwen or The Goddess, is really up to you.

The divine spirit gives you the power to take repsonsibility for your actions and make amends. It does not give free absolution, that is just a fantasy for those unwilling to face their 'sins'. The divine spirit does not judge, it allows you to do that to yourself.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\.

My great biblical stumbling stones were two similar incidents in the OT.
Genesis 19, where the men of Sodom surrounded Lot's house, demanding that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them. Lot offered his two virgin daughters instead. Lot was the only one saved from Sodom.

There is a similar story in Judges 19:16-30, with the cities men demanding "knowledge" of a visiting Levite. They sent the hosts virgin daughter and the Levite's concubine out to them. The concubine was found dead outside when they opened the door in the morning. Don't know what happened to the girl.

As there are two similar stories with the same message, there can only be one interpretation, which is very worldly and not at all divine. Mind you, i don't know what on earth Lot and the Levite and his host ought to have done in that situation, but neither can anyone else know it, and be so damn certain about it.
And then go and stick the NT onto it.

And while you're answering that, J., could you tell me why it is that most Christians appear to hold Jesus over God?
Many people address prayers to him, have masses of masses for him, and about a quarter of the Bible is about him and him alone.
Well, obviously, he sacrificed himself for us, and God only made everything ever.
But that sacrifice for our sins didn't really work, did it, if the baddies (people who want proof before they spend their lives having absolute faith in something) still have to go to hell?
Wasn't trying to be rude, it's just that sarcasm is often the only way to peirce the armour of fantacism which many 'faithful' cushion themselves with.
Anyone answer?

Interesting question that's probly been asked before:

If Jesus and God are the same person, why did Jesus have to die so God could forgive humanities sins? If God is all powerful, he couldhave forgiven them anyway and, if Jesus and God are the same, then ,if Jesus wanted them forgiven, so did god.

It's the thought that matters

Although being forced (FORCED!) to go to a Catholic primary school, so there's not many points of religion I'm not sure on, except the ridiculous ones, can someone PLEASE explain to me why, if Jesus died for our sins, I still have to go to hell? I am deeply, deeply confused over this, and have been for a few years.

Because god's a hypocrite? Because he didn't care what Jesus did? I don't know.

If the Bible is meant to be taken literally, did Jesus, the Lamb, have wooly hair and four legs with cloven hooves?

If not, it would seem the door is wide open for metaphor. And if that door is wide open, than certainty of interpretation has left the building. And if certainty of interpretation has left the building, then Altizer's right, God is Dead, and Justin is three networked computers. Or not.

It just seems to me that as soon as anyone says "I believe" they're also saying "I don't know, and I don't care that I don't know, and I won't bloody accept even the most ironclad demonstration that I don't know."

The funny thing is, I don't really care. (I guess some would say I'll go to Hell. Oh, well) It just seemed like there was so much heat generated by this Justin character that I should take a look. Whatever.

Some definitions for Hell are
a) A place where there is no God
b) A place where the damned don't know they're dead yet.
Now, if either of those are true, I'll be happy in Hell, the second one especially, since Hell can't be a boiling furnace or flames, cos that'd be a bit of a giveaway to the damned, wouldn't it? If BOTH those were true, Hell could be wonderful!
-m3

Also clear examples of why the christian god is good. He despises evil particularly that done against his goodness and the people he has called to be holy.

Another word for rebellion is idolatry which anyone who refuses to acknowledge God's sovereignty is in.

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God" (NB REBELLED)

God's choice to create evil on this earth doesn't make him evil as it at first seems but good because he is not forcing the ones who disagree with him to become 'slaves of his goodness'.

"I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

Although in human terms we consider violence to be wrong a god who is just in all he does 'slow to anger, abound with love' could have a categorical right 'to give life and take it away'. because he is deeply desiring the human soul.

"I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."
"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you."

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..." "Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women..."

Yes God does punish disobedience but he allows it to happen through man's disobedience when his chosen people(the israelites) turn away from him, they must suffer the consequences. in the same way as a child who is told not to touch a hot fire by his loving parents cannot blame them if he gets burned.

"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun." "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." "Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
God is just even in dealing with sexual sin. He said what was right and good according to his created order. 'a man shall leave his parents and be united to his wife they will become one flesh. He loves mankind and is devestated when they don't keep to this simple decree to be secure in love and relationship and the insecurity and jelosy evenually leaves to death or issolation as a jealous husband/wife may wish to leave an unfaithful spouse.

ask again Was it God, or the devil, who killed every man, woman, child and animal on earth because he lost his temper with them? Again wasn't man resposible as in the whole earth only one man was faithful to god. what did god do but show infinite just mercy in saying save my creation by a 'life'-boat rescue. he had the plan to continue life on this earth and as yet hasn't ever wiped it out as in his promise 'never again will i flood the whole earth.' We obviously can't blame God for something he hasn't done he has missed about 4 billion people and rising everyday even those who don't acknowledge him.

Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant? Who looked, did God leap from the ark knowing ful well that his holy image was fatal for man to look upon no!

Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah? God was eternally merciful to pharoah and even though he held all of god's people in forced slavery and idolatry to him he sent one of his prophets not to warn his own people but a rebellious nation of Egypt, he even stated categorically what the consequences of not 'letting my people go' would mean and still pharoah laughed at him - his own mistake.

Was it God or the devil, who gave the surviving 32,000 virgin girls of the Midianites to the rapacious Jewish army (see 7 above)? God had plans to establish himself throughout the whole earth amoung 'every tribe and tongue and nation' he loves the people of the earth and spares 32,000 of them to be mothers of a new generation of god's people enjoying all of the promises of god, a sign of his mercy to all the nations around.

I hope that this sheds a spirit-lit view on your questions and feelings about God all of which I have felt and experinced myself in my own anger and rebellion and guess what God showed me the same unfailing love and mercy and rescued me unquestioningly(overlooking my wrongs and my sorry state) and unconditionally(without predudice)

I am currently reading the Pleasures of God by John Piper, but I also think there's a great picture of God in the gospel well known as the Prodigal Son(about rebellion and God's unconditional love throughout).

Lastly always question God to his face don't attack his people.

Pharoah and too many others have suffered for that mistake.

thank you for being patient and listening to my personal views

please make up you own mind
and continue to make your own choices and decisions.

Also clear examples of why the christian god is good. He despises evil particularly that done against his goodness and the people he has called to be holy.

Another word for rebellion is idolatry which anyone who refuses to acknowledge God's sovereignty is in.

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God" (NB REBELLED)

God's choice to create evil on this earth doesn't make him evil as it at first seems but good because he is not forcing the ones who disagree with him to become 'slaves of his goodness'.

"I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

Although in human terms we consider violence to be wrong a god who is just in all he does 'slow to anger, abound with love' could have a categorical right 'to give life and take it away'. because he is deeply desiring the human soul.

"I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."

"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you."

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."

"Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women..."

Yes God does punish disobedience but he allows it to happen through man's disobedience when his chosen people(the israelites) turn away from him, they must suffer the consequences. in the same way as a child who is told not to touch a hot fire by his loving parents cannot blame them if he gets burned.

"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun."

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."

God is just even in dealing with sexual sin. He said what was right and good according to his created order. 'a man shall leave his parents and be united to his wife they will become one flesh. He loves mankind and is devestated when they don't keep to this simple decree to be secure in love and relationship and the insecurity and jelosy evenually leaves to death or issolation as a jealous husband/wife may wish to leave an unfaithful spouse.

ask again Was it God, or the devil, who killed every man, woman, child and animal on earth because he lost his temper with them? Again wasn't man resposible as in the whole earth only one man was faithful to god. what did god do but show infinite just mercy in saying save my creation by a 'life'-boat rescue. he had the plan to continue life on this earth and as yet hasn't ever wiped it out as in his promise 'never again will i flood the whole earth.' We obviously can't blame God for something he hasn't done he has missed about 4 billion people and rising everyday even those who don't acknowledge him.

Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant? Who looked, did God leap from the ark knowing ful well that his holy image was fatal for man to look upon no!

Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah? God was eternally merciful to pharoah and even though he held all of god's people in forced slavery and idolatry to him he sent one of his prophets not to warn his own people but a rebellious nation of Egypt, he even stated categorically what the consequences of not 'letting my people go' would mean and still pharoah laughed at him - his own mistake.

Was it God or the devil, who gave the surviving 32,000 virgin girls of the Midianites to the rapacious Jewish army (see 7 above)? God had plans to establish himself throughout the whole earth amoung 'every tribe and tongue and nation' he loves the people of the earth and spares 32,000 of them to be mothers of a new generation of god's people enjoying all of the promises of god, a sign of his mercy to all the nations around.

I hope that this sheds a spirit-lit view on your questions and feelings about God all of which I have felt and experinced myself in my own anger and rebellion and guess what God showed me the same unfailing love and mercy and rescued me unquestioningly(overlooking my wrongs and my sorry state) and unconditionally(without predudice)

I am currently reading the Pleasures of God by John Piper, but I also think there's a great picture of God in the gospel well known as the Prodigal Son(about rebellion and God's unconditional love throughout).

Lastly always question God to his face don't attack his people.

Pharoah and too many others have suffered for that mistake.

thank you for being patient and listening to my personal views

please make up you own mind
and continue to make your own choices and decisions.

"Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah? God was eternally merciful to pharoah and even though he held all of god's people in forced slavery and idolatry to him he sent one of his prophets not to warn his own people but a rebellious nation of Egypt, he even stated categorically what the consequences of not 'letting my people go' would mean and still pharoah laughed at him - his own mistake."

So, for the pharoes mistake, those who were living under his rule were punished, even though he was an absolute monarch and they had little choice in the matter. That's not fair to those he killed.

"Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant? Who looked, did God leap from the ark knowing ful well that his holy image was fatal for man to look upon no!"

Did he do anything to warn them not to look? Or were they being punished for an action they couldn't know was rong. Why couldn't he block their view, if it was so deadly for him to look?

"Another word for rebellion is idolatry which anyone who refuses to acknowledge God's sovereignty is in."

Last time I looked it up, idolatry meant the worship of idols. If I believe in no religion, how can I commit idolotry. Or is this just a Justin-like examle of a fundamentalist christian redefining words to their purposes without regaurd to their definitions.

And finally:
"Lastly always question God to his face don't attack his people."

How do you propose we do that? And, didn't you say seeing him is fatal? And, I'm not attacking Jstin, or others of "God's people". I'm attacking the views they choose to publish. If you publish something or say something, you are giving those to whome you say it or publish it the right to respond.

sorry to ask again but:

If the Bible is meant to be taken literally, did Jesus, the Lamb, have wooly hair and four legs with cloven hooves?

I doubt it's meant to be taken that literally. But then, I suspecct that much of it is no more accurate than the Greek myths.

Then I guess we all can just pick and choose what we want to believe. I'm free! I'm free!

Babelfish - though how little you deserve that name, given that you seem to have failed at translating not only the world's truths but also Iesus' truths into your own reality - what will follow is not bitterness at your Christian "Church", though I have earned the right to be bitter. It is not astonishment about the new depths of ignorance you and your fellows demonstrate daily that humanity can reach. It is not even about the relentless propagadism and advertising of evanglism and daemolism that your "Church" - properly a cult that brainwashes most of its followers- that seems unfortunately (but not inextricably) linked with (most of) your cult's followers. It is not even, "God" help me, rage at my lack of a decent father figure in my life, or any sort of supressed homosexual Electra complex. It is merely dissapointment and a wish for humanity to enlighten itself.
So:
1) "but good because he is not forcing the ones who disagree with him to become 'slaves of his goodness'." You say that the threat of "God" destroying every friend and relative and anyone who's ever been in contact with the guilty party, and then sending the accused to eternal torment in Hell, you say that that threat is not repression designed to force the ones who disagree with "Him" to become his followers?

2) "Although in human terms we consider violence to be wrong a god who is just in all he does..." - Reread the Commandments, as a rational person, and read them carefully in the *spirit* of the laws, and not the words. Then try to claim that your followers support a violent "God".

3) I should think that you, as a rational person, have read the Bible, and not simply seen it. The difference is as vital as those who listen, and those who hear. You must have read many cases of the Old Testament "God" punishing those who "He" "judges" (see point 4) horrifically - see point 1. All this "He" does, for the love of a human soul? Let us not forget that over half of ye Olde Testamente punishments were without warnings, and the few that were were warnings through human mouthpieces - picture yourself as the powerful and gracious Pharoah, when some grubby, manic fanatic runs in from the street wearing tattered rugs and tells you you'd better stop what you're doing, because his invisible "God"/friend (the parallel is an informative one, since the disciple views "God" subliminally as the Higher Self, e.g. a symbol of the disciple, and thus the disciple becomes all-powerful, merely because of the associative psychosomatic visualisation that makes them become "God" - they feel calm and goodwilled because they believe that they are calm and goodwilled) wants you to? Better yet, a modern parallel: you are sitting on the floor praying before bed, when suddenly a dirty, stange UFO cultist runs in wearing an aluminium hat and tells you to lay down your bible and join the rituals or you will be kill by the aliens from planet X. How would you react?

4) Judgement. Ah, an interesting concessionary one, I fear. "...a god who is just in all he does...". So, imagine that you're in the time of Gomorrha or Sodom, and you're an innocent passer-by on the street who's merely on his way home to his country farm, when suddenly the skies crack and the Heavens boil and you find yourself being flayed for all eternity. It's just one of those days. Now, how would "God" judge you? This, remember, is a "god" who is "right and good according to his created order". A "god" who is neither Good nor Bad. A "god" who is perfect. An emotionless Big Brother. Now, given that "God" is as stated, how does "God" judge? "He" has no moral tendencies to either side, "He" has no emotions. "He" has no physical form or mind in which the accidental actions of electrons can influence the way a person acts; "He" has no testosterone or similar chemicals flowing through "His" body which "He" must control or be ruled by. How can this "god" have any sympathy with the human view? How can this "god" be able to understand human thoughts, if "He" is so perfect we cannot understand him?

5) "have a categorical right 'to give life and take it away'". He gives us life, makes us commit crime, then takes it away. Thanks, "God". This so-called categorical right hardly ties in with free will, does it? Plus it must be handy for you believers to have a Big Brother on your shoulder ready to smite those who disagree justly, merely because you've decided to add another clause into the contract of social life.

6)Oh dear. "we consider violence to be wrong", "he is deeply desiring the human soul", "He despises evil particularly that done against his goodness and the people he has called to be holy,". Another modern example : a political ruler from the opposite wing from you has done or suggested that they should kill all the nonchristian individuals in the world, out of a love for their eternal souls, for if they are allowed to live they will simply keep compounding their religious error each day. This man is more important than you, more powerful than you, and his opinion counts for millions, and he desires the human soul as "God" would. Yet is he not wrong?

7)"He said what was right and good according to his created order." His followers decide what is right or wrong, and write it down in a pretty little book that they claim is good. The map is not the territory; the followers are not the "God".

8) "one man was faithful to god.". Forget the theology, and consider the basic statistics of the thing : out of the four billion (can anyone give me a better estimate?) people on the earth back then, only one was devoid of sin? The devil must've been on a roll.

9) C'MON! Even you must admit that this story is a bit funny. In my book (The Gospel of Fnord, sadly it was edited out of the final edition) this is as good as the "Hey! Look, Adam, Eve, the most delicious (and only) apple ever, and it'll make you "God"s like me and give you knowledge. BTW, if you eat it, I'll curse you. I'm just going to leave you and the apple alone for a while now...." Eden story as the funniest story in the Bible, if not better. "Don't look over there! (points). Ahah, gotcha!"

10) "Lastly always question God to his face don't attack his people." Give me a way to contact "God" and I will venerate you for all eternity.

11)"Pharoah and too many others have suffered for that mistake". The only thing they suffered from was old age.

12)"God had plans to establish himself throughout the whole earth amoung 'every tribe and tongue and nation'". Was it Christians or atheists/agnostics who formed the KKK?

13)"God is just even in dealing with sexual sin." Sorry, jus checking, it was *"God"* who put these urges of homophobia in our heads, wasn't it? The only thing that dictates sexual laws is the inbuilt desire of the particular to continue the gene-pool, and the priesthood with their celibacy are surely going against "God"s will of each man marrying and spreading forth his seed? Besides, it has always been the shamanic class of society that breaks taboos and becomes homosexual, every dynasty throughout history has had homosexual priests, and by creating a law that allowed them to kill out the old shamans, the new Christian priests have dominated the western religion for centuries. Was it the Knights Templar or the agnostic/atheists who were killed for homosexuality?

Maybe Babelfish would like to take a stab at the "literal Bible" question:

If the Bible is meant to be taken literally, did Jesus, the Lamb, have wooly hair and four legs with cloven hooves?

Maybe I should make an "ask the community" thread out of it.

I think he/she thought it was a joke.
My "God", that post of mine was long. I must've been feeling bitter after all, no matter what I said at the beginning. I'll bet you haven't even bothered reading it, you just scrolled down to the bottom after the first paragraph and upon seeing the points. That's what I do.

Actually, I did read (most of) your post.

My question is not a joke. I really am interested in learning how people draw the line between what they take as literal and what they take as figurative. I would like to be able to have a rational discussion about it, to find out whether there is any systematic basis for the distinction. I'm hoping that the question, both in its literal form and in its underlying general implication, will not be dismissed.

well, never mind. I'm going to put it into "ask the community"