h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm not attempting to be rude, but isn't it called a conscience? All higher lifeforms are supposed to have one.

Higher life forms. Have you met any recently?
Anyway, concience is only the term...but it IS vaguely what Im refering to. Its not working properly in most minds and thats what I'm writing about. The concience is designed by society throughout adolescance, and because society is generaly known to be stupid, so are its consequences.

Mm, I guess you have a point. Last time I saw a higher life form was when I looked in the mirror heh heh.

I agree that society has a lot to answer for... men have less social conscience then women, I find. Everyone (even a lovely fluffy Buddhist-y type like me) has dark desires. If you have a situation in which you cannot be reproached by anyone, and you don't yield to temptation, that is a sign that your conscience is working properly, right?

More people should develop a conscience. I know all about people being beyond reproach, believe me. My consolation is that they're screwing their karma.

Mirrors are probably the richest source of human perfection... people always seem to recognize it when looking at one.
(So what is better? Standards that are set by an image of yourself, or standards that are set by an image society has drawn?)

Concsience. Well, about not submitting to your dark desires... I'm not sure about that. I think thats called conformity.
A concsience that works properly is one that gives you feedback (to your actions and thoughts) according to what YOU think is right (Or wrong) and not according to what society dictates.
(Easy example - eating chocolate (FAT related))
(Complex example - Stealing from a theif)

To go back to my original idea - I want to cancel the term 'Should I' and turn everything to "Do I want to" (ALL parameters included, obviously). That should work for us (i.e Me and You). Not so sure about them (other people...).
Worth a try though.

Bujus (Cleaner of mirrors).

Ooh, a compliment. thank you. It would be an interesting little experiment.

Not sure that not submitting to dark desire is necessarily conformity. I tend to think logically, and I won't do something that I know I will regret. Even if there's no comeback, I would still regret it, I know from experience. Maybe that's just me.

Wondering if there is a natural justice system that rules a vast section of humanity. There's the nature/nurture problem. How much of your personal censoring system has been shaped by those around you - family, friends, colleagues, teachers... assimilated into your personal ethos and system of values without you even noticing. Not to mention the fact that what society wants is not always necessarily what it wants (ie, that humans en masse always seem to have different values from the individuals it is comprised from.)

To find the IQ of a group, take the average overall IQ and divide it by the number of people in that group...

Should humans should be ruled by logic and not emotion? because there are emotional stimuli which pressure the way we behave both in private and in public. how you are expected to behave in certain situations is how you tend to behave (I've stopped doing that now, because - as you can guess - it was making me thoroughly miserable.)

And I think that half the people I know wouldn't have a clue what we're even talking about.

So whats RIGHT then?

What is a BETTER conscience?

Is it that of a man that has been surrounded by the right people for his entire life (i.e the `right` influences on his moral and value system), or is it that of a man that had no contact with the outer world whatsoever? (the `lord of the flies` theory).

Obviously, the first would be a more logical, moderate person and the latter would be a person drived by his desires and instincts.

So who decides what is better? is it ok to go againsts our instincts? are we trying to be someone that we are not?

It would normally seem right to do ANYTHING you wish to do. But would you want your neighbour to do the same (with your wife, for example???).

Tough one. What do you say? (at last I have someone to ask for an answer worth listening to...)

'Right' is a somewhat unquantifiable word. By whose value system would you judge the 'right' people to surround someone with?

It seems to be the old 'do as you would be done by' thing. A lot of principles/scruples don't seem to apply if you apply them to yourself. The saying in our house seemed to be 'don't do as I do, do as I say'.

That could either be interpreted as a desire to instil higher values than the speaker actually holds, or a vicious suppression of another person's desires, despite it being ok for you to gratify your own desires.

I also think that you get more cautious as you get older - you become more aware that what you do has an effect on others and that maybe you don't want someone else's 'selfish' actions to impact on you. I tend to think that a lot of what we call civilisation is just the suppression of instinct through fear.

Then again, defining instinct is very hard. I was at college with a guy who, if not quite the stereotypical "alpha male", was regarded as a bit wild and untamed. However, I found that this was a projected image - he was from a certain area, his father had a bit of reputation, he was living up to the family image. He's now more into being himself and is calmer, gentler, more emotional. I /would/ have said that aggression was closer to instinct, now I'm not convinced.

And the Lord of the Flies thing - who can say that the resulting human /wouldn't/ be better than any one of us? They might be mad by society's standards, but as I've said, that's an everchanging standard anyway.

So... How would YOU like to be?
Or before that, how ARE you right now?

Its interesting that while most people have different opinions about how people are and people should be, they still live by society's rules. Sometime that is good (for us) because their ideas of a conscience are pathetically frightening (or frighteningally pathetic).
But in general its bad. Not that I care. Its just generally bad.
For someone...

I kinda like the fact that there certain rules for everyone. Its makes them all predictable. I'm not ashamed to say that I play with that. Often for the good of my friends, but often for my own good.

There is also the aspect of breaking the concensus.
Dictatorship for instance. Of course its bad... right?
But if its the right leader? isnt that MUCH better than a bunch of elected nitwits in charge of a pragmatic governament?

Religion. Whats up with that? How is it possible that SO many people in this world are either believers OR take the existence of so many believers as a normal phenomenon? One of this worlds biggest enigmas.

What does a (fluffy?) aloui kitten have to say about that?

I would like to believe that I am essentially a pleasant person. However, I acknowledge that I can't possibly be pleasant to everyone... otherwise I would become little more then a cipher. /I/ will not attempt to change for anyone.

Society's rules have usually be built up over many years. Humans seem to be inherently resistant to change, they wish to preserve the status quo. Things remain unchanged under the mantle of 'tradition'. It takes a lot to change the minds of many people, it is virtually unobtainable unless over a long period of time. Governments try to change minds by having someone to tell people that the should change their minds, and by bringing in legislation to prevent or to ensure things happening. i would say that this is usually a waste of time, as people will obey a law they believe to be wrong only as long as they run the risk of getting caught. Which poses the question - how many laws are considered wrong by the "social mind" of a country?

Living by society's rules - it is wrong if you merely obey unquestioningly. That means that you aren't thinking about the consequences of your own actions, and therefore can't have much control over your own life. Another question - fear or apathy? Or just not having the requisite mental resilience to accept that you /should/ be responsible to yourself?

The rules which bind us are nominally there for our own good, but more often turn out to be for the good of those in power. There are also the unspoken rules. I've never heard of anyone being arrested for 'assault with a cream cake', but you don't expect the person you're dining with to suddenly announce they're sick of you and shove a handful of profiterôles in your face. It seems unlikely that anyone would be that - what? Rude? But it happened, I've witnessed it. Someone just gave up, decided "what the hell". Nothing happened. There appears to be no penalty for breaking the social rules - bar being talked about. In private, it would possibly have been a different matter!

The point of people preferring an elected government is that, even if they're complete muppets, they have been democratically elected, and everyone who voted has the right to feel that

a) they are responsible for the way the country is being run
b) they can always change the way things are
c) at least they know that things have been done fairly.

A dictator may be kind, benevolent, wise. He/she may run the country better than an elected government. The economy may boom, and the crime rate may plummet under their watchful eye. But no matter how wise, kind, benevolent the dictator, people will feel resentful. They would rather have a hand in mucking up a country, than one person guiding it wisely.

Religion is... a space in people's heads. While they refuse to believe in a wise leader of their own kind, they will happily follow some mad bloke who claims to be talking to the creator of the universe, a creature who sees everything and knows everything? Perhaps it's a weakness in human minds. I can see the point of the early primitive gods - the god who makes the corn grow, etc. But a Being with a Plan?

Maybe there are so many believers because it's a kind of insurance policy - just in case there's something in it! That's how these kinds of things tend to grow. A couple of persuasive speakers, and suddenly you've got yourself a new religion.

So there is this book, right?
Ender's game.

Dont know if you've read it (obviously).

There's this part in the book in which two kids influence the entire world by writing articles in newspapers and joining online actuality conferences. They end up ruling it.

After reading your last three paragraphs I have thought of two things.

A) This is truly a pathetic, ridiculously evolved world we live in.

B) We might be able to start changing it. But we need heaps of money.

I'll start working on that

We could sell normality and logic as a new religion.
Turn the old religions into the current default and urge people to wake THE BLOODY HELL up, instead of whats going on now which is normality being the default, and people looking for escapes from it.

True, this is actually a different kind of brainwash, but I never said I was against brainwash, only against thr negative kind.
It all adds up to this - I am the center of my world, just like john doe is the center of his. I care about others, but I choose who I care about, which makes me the center again. I want my world to be what I want it to be, and this doesnt only include changing myself, but also the world. Yes, I am talking about deciding for other people what is right or wrong, and I'm not trying to make it sound better than what it is. Its just what I think. Its MY truth.

Yeah, I've read it. It's an interesting concept, I must admit. the atmosphere of religious and nationalistic paranoia at the moment is roughly parallel to the atmosphere described in that book. Hmm... unstable government... that sounds familiar.

My one problem here is that I'm not a kid anymore! But I /can/ do cynicism in four different languages.

I could be /very/ happy ruling the world...!!

Being a kid WAS the problem... you're privileged.

Which languages?

Mine are English, Spanish, French and Hebrew.
Allthough I cant really do cynism in French.
Dont know why, it always comes out stupid.

I thought all French was cynicism! ... maybe it's that 'Gallic shrug' thing I've been told I do so well.

I speak French, German, Spanish, English and /can/ speak and understand a little Gaelic.

Wouldn't say that being an old git is really a privilege.

(I'm not really an old git btw - just getting there! )

Que bueno... podemos ablar en 3 idiomas.
Actualmente, ya no puedo ablar en frances como antes... despues de aprender castellano todo me mescla...

But I still have my English, they can never take that away from me...
(Why would they?)

So whats the story with Gaelic? Tell me more.

Aye-aye... something up here?

I have no idea what I wrote up there, but it appears that I've caught someone's eye.

Do they read everything?

thats quite exiting.

the big brother is watching.

Lets see what happens.

Or maybe YOU wrote that?

Or someone else??

Fantastic turn of events. It will surely fill up beautifully the 85 seconds a week I spend here.

Oh the suspense.

Wasn't me anyway. Perhaps it was just a random posting?

Big Brother is watching indeed... HELLO!! *waves at the screen like a loony*

I cant take this any longer!
I HAVE to know!

Its one thing to have to deal with bureaucracy, but why does it always have to be that slow?

*** gritting teeth ***
*** sweating in hands ***
*** tapping frantically on the table ***

No puedo creer que los malditos estan actualmente leyendo lo que escribimos...
Probablement ils ont rien a faire, n'est pas?

ANOTHER moderation! Can my heart stand the excitement?