h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Happy New Year.

Just a Heads Up UK Channel 4 is airing a three part programme with the above title from February 2007. The book is available, there are some interesting findings on Devon in it.

May post later.

tivvyboy,

Happy New Year to you also.

I have now read through much of the book “Face of Britain” by Robin McKie, and I have a number of comments to make. There are indeed a number of interesting findings regarding Devon, and these correlate well with the findings of Sykes (“Blood of the Isles”), i.e. that the Y-Chromosome profile in Devon is virtually identical to that found in Cornwall. However, McKie (and possibly Bodmer, if the book is accurately reflecting his interpretation) seems to make a number of unsubstantiated assumptions. Firstly, he assumes that the Cornwall/Devon/Pembrokeshire DNA profile represents the (100%) indigenous British population, whereas the East Anglia/Lincolnshire profile represents the (100%) Anglo-Saxon immigrant population. He then proceeds, on this basis, to calculate the relative proportions of British/A-S populations in the other regions tested, i.e. Kent, Sussex, Oxfordshire, Cumbria, and North-East England. If either (or both) of the above assumptions are incorrect, then the calculated proportions for these other regions will be incorrect also.

He also assumes that all migrations, where the Y-Haplogroup signatures map those to be found in North West Germany, must represent Anglo-Saxon period migrations. Both Oppenheimer (using the Cappeli et al data set) and Sykes (using his own more comprehensive data set) conclude that much of the migration from North West Germany and Scandinavia occurred well before the 5th century AD (using the latest analysis techniques, such as Phylogeography). The most likely time for these earlier migrations was found to be during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, which would imply only relatively small invasions/migrations during the Anglo-Saxon period. The Y-Chromosome evidence at the Haplotype level does indeed show a small-scale migration at this time. These considerations imply that the assumption that the East Anglia/Lincolnshire profile represents the (100%) Anglo-Saxon immigrant population is not only unjustified, but leads to highly inaccurate admixture proportions in much of Britain.

I would therefore conclude that while the Bodmer data set is a useful addition to the Capelli and Sykes sets, many of the conclusions drawn in the McKie book cannot be justified.

PE,

Happy New Year (and to all other posters)

Thank you for the information on the "Face of Britain".

It will be interesting to know what the C4 programme adds (or subtracts) when it goes to air.

It is interesting that McKie puts Devon, Cornwall and Pembrokeshire as the extreme Celtic/Brythonic end of the spectrum - indicating that there is no significant differences between the three locations. Is this correct?

If I recall data from Sykes' book, Wales returned the highest proportion of "Oisin" (Celtic) genotypes in Britain (~85%) and East Anglia the lowest (51% - but still a majority).

Perhaps the 'extremism' is to accent the differences between regions - perhaps for dramatic effect?? A shame if this is so as it glosses over the similarities, and ignores the fact that the Celtic indigenous people survived in numbers throughout Britain.

For those that don't have the book, is there some indications of teh results by regions (ie where on this scale the other regions fitted in?), and whether this pattern was also consistent with the other studies?

PE,

I have just remembered that Pembrokeshire includes that area around "Milford Haven" known as "Little England beyond Wales" (refer earlier posts).

In Sykes' book he indicates that these parts of Pembrokeshire return a higher than average (Welsh) percentage of blood type "A" (some 5-10% higher) - which had been rumoured to be indicative of Saxon - or alternatively Viking - ancestry.

The general rule in Britain is that as you tranverse western Europe (and Britain) the blood type "A" is more prevalent in the east, and type "O" more common in the west. [Incidentally across Europe type "B" generally declines as you head west - until you arrive in the UK when the trend is reversed and generally there is a slightly greater proportion of type "B" as you proceed westward]

On that same page (Pg 90) Sykes then indicates that the high proportion "A" blood type is not consistent with the relatively low percentage of blood type "A" in the low countries (presumably a reference to the Saxon homelands), and later in his book Sykes indicates that there is no correlation with any measured increase in "Viking" (Sigurd) Y chromosome in the area.

However, Sykes does not adequately explain why or what causes the "A" blood type to be that much more common in that part of Wales.

Sykes appears to leave this question as an unsolved mystery.

However this does beg the question why McKie uses such a potentially "anolomalous" area as a reference point?

Any clues in the book???

Ozzie Exile,

Happy New Year to you and all other posters.

You are quite right that McKie lumps Devon, Cornwall and Pembrokeshire together as representing the extreme Celtic end of the spectrum. Sykes has South Wales (including Pembrokeshire) at 84.2% and the South West (including Devon and Cornwall) at 78.2%. It is possible that Pembrokeshire is nearer the Devon/Cornwall figure, as 84.2% is the average for the whole of South Wales. The rest of South Wales was not covered by the Bodmer survey.

McKie seems to have assumed (as Weale et al did) that East Anglia is 100% Anglo-Saxon, because its Y-profile is very similar to that of Frisia. Oppenheimer and Sykes regard this sort of analysis as being very crude, as it does not take into account the marked differences at the haplotype level between East Anglia and Frisia.

To be fair, McKie does put a reservation on the conclusions when he says: “These analyses assume that Cornwall, Devon and Wales are the most Celtic parts of Southern Britain and that East Anglia and Lincolnshire are the most Anglo-Saxon”. While I would not disagree with that assumption, it does not follow that Cornwall, Devon and Wales are necessarily 100% Celtic and East Anglia and Lincolnshire are necessarily 100% Anglo-Saxon (particularly the later).

Bearing in mind these unsubstantiated assumptions, McKie quotes the following figures:-
Northumberland and Durham: 77% Anglo-Saxon and 23% Celtic
Sussex and Kent: 71% Anglo-Saxon and 29% Celtic
Cumbria: 56% Anglo-Saxon and 44% Celtic
Oxfordshire: 49% Anglo-Saxon and 51% Celtic

This seems to be inconsistent with what he wrote in the earlier part of the book, where he states: “it is now more or less agreed that about 80% of Britons’ genes today come from hunter-gatherers who came in immediately after the Ice Age”.

Another interesting statistic that comes from Bodmer’s genetic survey is the incidence of the R151C and R160W variants of the MC1R gene, which are responsible for the occurrence of red hair. Frequencies of these variants are:-
Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%
McKie then states that red hair is not found in Devon and Cornwall as much as one would expect, because the affect of these variants of MC1R is mediated by other hair genes.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Channel 4 series in February.

On the subject of blood groups, it seems to be a poor indicator of origins (see Oppenheimer Figure 11.1).

Plymouth Exile

I agree that the book has to be taken with other research, as you would with any other scientific research. One swallow does not a summer make.

As you say I also wait on the C4 programme to see what they are making of the results.

I was intrigued by the percentage of Devonians having one of the highest percentages of the genes for red hair. It is not something I would have associated with Devon in particular or the Westcountry in general. Though it must be said a lot of us do have red stubble if not beards if we don't shave (making us carriers of the genes). It was an interesting finding and as Mr McKie points out it is a characteristic (red hair) associated mainly with these islands.

But the other findings do agree with there being a genetic step between the western and eastern halves of Great Britain.

I await the series with interest.

PE,

Thanks for the additional information. Interesting.

I was surprised by the substantial differential between Cumbria and the Devon/Cornwall/Wales data.

I was surprised because even if you adjust for the fact that East Anglia/Lincoln is not 100% Saxon, nor Devon/Cornwall/Wales 100% British, the McKie data indicates that Cumbria was still closer to the former than the latter.

This surprised me - and did seem a little out of step with Sykes' results.

Sykes' data suggested that the whole of Northumbria (perhaps equivalent to a combination of McKie's Northumberland/Durham in the east AND Cumbria in the west) gave the second highest proportion of Celtic (Oisin) genotype in England (behind the South-West 68.3% vs 78.2% - East Anglia was 51.2% and the English average 64%).

I expected to see a divide across the Pennines - which is evident - but I expected a greater Celtic factor in the west.

I think I will have to buy a copy and mull over its findings.

Hopefully they pod-cast the C4 program.

Ozzie Exile,

According to my calculations, adjusting McKie’s figures to put the South West at 78% and East Anglia at 51%, would (pro-rata) give:-
Cumbria: 63%
North East: 57%
Oxfordshire: 65%
Kent & Sussex: 59%

While these figures are not quite the same as Sykes’s figures, they are not too far adrift considering that Bodmer’s sample sizes per region were much lower than Sykes’s.

Also remember that there was significant Viking input into much of Cumbria.

I have now recieved "the Face of Britain", which makes interesting reading.

It does not delve into too much detail on why it was decided that Devon, Cornwall and Pembrokeshire are the (similar and singular) celtic extreme of the range (with East Anglia at the other extreme).

It does contain some interesting aspects, but (perhaps because it is tied to a TV production) in other areas it does tend toward the shallow with respect to analysis.

With reference to the articles reported high proportion of the Celtic 'red headed' gene in Devon, which (curiously) does not correspond to a equally high proportion of "ginger-nuts" in the adult population in Devon (or Cornwall), I would comment as follows.

Personally, of my siblings, I am the only one who does not demonstrate the (equally celtic) evidence of "black hair". My brother and sister are black-haired, but I am not.

I did not demonstrate the "red stubble" that Tivvyboy suggests, but I did vary between a 'dark head' in winter and a 'reddish' one in summer. As I gained age (but not wisdom) it seems that I have stabilised with a darker head - although recently turning a touch grey.

Perhaps this is evidence of another genotype that overides the "red headed" gene form with another.

...and I should comment on the various "Faces of Britain" that appear in the book.

The book (and program) show a range of "typical" faces for certain of the regions within Britain - showing "typical" male and female faces for Cornewall, Exeter, Pembrokeshire , East Anglia etc....

These faces are built up as a collage of local people from each region.

As this is the name of the program I had anticipated a greater definition between the extremes, .... but the differences were not all that obvious to me.

For example the 'typical' face for Cornwall was very similar to that for Sussex. IMHO the standouts were the rather "long" face of Newcastle and the relatively round faces of Exeter and the square of Pembrokeshire.

In fact I must say I recognise the "typical" face of the Devonian male - and his name is Stephen!!

Hi Ozzie

I did not suggest that most of us on this board had the red stubble (although I do, and typically red head skin after shaving despite a hair colour best described as "mouse") I meant a lot of us Devonians do.. Like yourself Ozzie, a carrier, probably, of the gene.

Regards the Devon face, I hoped no one noticed that! I think most of my relatives have the "Exeter" face! Although to be fair the text did state that Devonians as a whole have rather promenenant noses (see my family again).

tb

“It does not delve into too much detail on why it was decided that Devon, Cornwall and Pembrokeshire are the (similar and singular) celtic extreme of the range (with East Anglia at the other extreme).”

McKie’s conclusions seem to be at odds with the place name evidence. As you pointed out in post no. 4, south Pembrokeshire is known as Little England Beyond Wales, and is a linguistic anomaly as far as Wales is concerned.

The majority of the place names in this part of Wales are typically English in format, showing much less evidence of Celtic language survival than in Cornwall. The frequency of Celtic place names is actually quite like that of Devon and west Somerset. You get the odd name that indicates that this was, once, a Celtic speaking area.

If what happened in south Pembrokeshire had been repeated across Wales, we would not see Wales today as a separate and distinct nation. It would be more like a greater West Country or an extension of the Midlands.

The question with south Pembrokeshire is what exactly happened there to make it so un-Welsh.

ExeValleyBoy,

I think it is more a case that the place-name evidence is at odds with McKie’s conclusions, than the other way round. There is now a large body of genetic evidence that the inhabitants of the area of South Pembrokeshire, where English place names predominate, have genetic signatures that are indistinguishable from those in the rest of South Wales. This comes from studies by Capelli et at (for Haverfordwest), Oppenheimer (who reanalysed the Capelli data, using a Phylogeograpic technique), and Sykes from his own huge data set (using similar techniques to those used by Oppenheimer, plus exact gene match analysis). The question that needs to be answered is why English place names predominate in South Pembrokeshire. It has been said that English and Flemish settlers were moved into the area, and some accounts say that the Flemish group later left the area. It is possible that if the English settlers had originally come from regions close to the Welsh border, where the surveys show that the modern population is genetically indistinguishable from the South Welsh (Sykes, Appendix), then it would not only be possible to explain the genetic homogeneity, but also the preponderance of English place names.

Devon and west Somerset can only be construed as having a small percentage of Brythonic names if the multitude of ‘combe’, ‘dun’, ‘tor’, etc. place-names are considered to be names given to the places by Anglo-Saxons using words borrowed from the Britons. This makes two basic assumptions that do not stand up to rigorous analysis. Firstly it assumes that Anglo-Saxon immigrants into the area were numerous enough to have given the names to the huge number of minor places whose names contain these elements. The genetic surveys seem to be unanimous in agreeing that only a tiny minority (2%-3%) of the Dark Age population of Devon and West Somerset could have been of Anglo-Saxon origin, so the hypothesis that such a tiny minority could have named all (or even a majority) of the ‘combe’, ‘dun’, ‘tor’, etc. places is statistically extremely unlikely. Secondly, it assumes that once a Brythonic place-name element had been ‘borrowed’ by the Anglo-Saxons, the remaining British population (in this case the vast majority), for some unaccountable reason, ceased to use the term themselves from that time onward. Again, such a hypothesis seems to be extremely unlikely. If the many ‘combe’, ‘dun’, ‘tor’ etc. place-names are included in the list of Brythonic origin names, then the overall percentage of such names rises dramatically.

With regard to hair colour, there are two pigments which influence it. Eumelanin is a blackish colour, phaeomelanin is orangy.

People with golden blond hair have a relative lack of the former, but a reasonable amount of the latter (resulting in the yellowish look). Red hair is an excess of phaeomelanin, with relatively little of the other. If I remember rightly, the "red hair gene" which results in the excess also tends to interfere with the production of eumelanin (hence the fair skin and freckles associated with red hair).

I'd imagine that having a reddish tinge in the hair isn't necessarily an indication that one carries that gene. Indeed brown hair colour is presumably a result of an intermediate degree of eumelanin, but mixed with phaeomelanin. If there was none of the latter in the mix, the "brown" hair would probably be some shade of grey.

Tivvyboy,

That's interesting about Devonians having prominent noses Remains from Iron Age and Roman times indicate that the Britons, Gauls and Irish (or at least a certain section of society, probably freemen and/or upper classes) were very much characterised by a prominent, "convex" (i.e. sort of "hooked") nose.

The Bronze Age entered the British Isles along with a new, distinctive culture. Associated with this culture are burials containing people with this same trait. My guess is that these new people were the Celts.

Greetings all

Latest news on "Face of Britain", it is currently scheduled to air on UK Channel 4 and S4C analog in April.

The first part of Face of Britain is to air at 20.00 BST on Channel 4 on Saturday 14th April 2007

Tivvyboy,

I have now seen all three parts in the series - thanks for the heads up.

For those that have not seen the three part series, it looks at the genealogy of Britain by sampling populations who have deep roots in their region (all four grandparents from a single area), and carries out DNA testing in each grouping.

Series One looks at the west coast of Britain (Cornwall, Devon and Pembrokeshire). [Devon (and Cornwall) were found to be overwhelmingly Celtic.]

Series Two looks at East Anglia and the north east of England.

Series Three looks at the Orkneys, southern England, central England (Oxford) and the "New face of Britain".

The findings included the conclusion that Devon was considered overwhelmingly Celtic, as were Cornwall and Pembrokeshire - although the "little England within Wales" sub-region did show a notable Flemish component.

By comparison East Anglia and the North East were considered Anglo-Saxon (with about a third of the North East being Celtic).

The Orkney's were an interesting mixture of Norwegian Viking (especially on the male inherited gene) with a majority of Celtic (Pictish) on the female side. (By this they deduced that many Norwegian Vikings settlers 'bred' with local Celts.)

In Oxford the finding was that the population was pretty much a 50/50 split of Celt and Saxon, and that in southern England there was little genetic evidence of the Normans (But this was because the Normans were probably genetically Anglo-Saxon anyway).

In addition to the science (summarised above - which the TV series did not go into in great detail), what was interesting was the public perceptions of who they were (before being tested).

In Devon and Cornwall EVERY respondent shown indicated that they believed that they were of Celtic stock. This was also true for most of Pembrokeshire.

In East Anglia it was reversed, with (almost) all believing/wishing themselves Anglo-Saxon.

Both were (generally) proven correct.

In North East England those surveyed overwhelmingly wanted to believe themselves to be Vikings (although rather sadly there was no evidence of Norwegian Viking found, and although they could still have been Danish Vikings these were genetically indistinguishable from Anglo-Saxons).

The DVD version of the series is now available £9.99 RRP.

Plymouth Exile,

I just noticed an interesting comment in your post from over a year ago:

"The genetic surveys seem to be unanimous in agreeing that only a tiny minority (2%-3%) of the Dark Age population of Devon and West Somerset could have been of Anglo-Saxon origin"

I'm just wondering if those responsible for the surveys have an explanation as to why "Anglo-Saxon" lineages now account for over 20 percent of the population of Devon.
Is it simply the movement of individuals between English counties over the centuries that has resulted in a gradual evening out of the genetic make-up of England/Britain, or is it presumed to be something else?

Einion,

Strictly speaking, the figures I gave referred to the direct male ancestral line, as these are the ones most readily available from the surveys and analyses (Capelli et al, Oppenheimer, and Sykes). The Sykes survey for Devon and Cornwall gives 78.2% from Northern Iberia, 12.6% from Northwest Germany and/or Denmark, 4.2% from Norway, and 5.1% total from other minor sources.

However, both the Oppenheimer and Sykes analyses of the data are carried out at the haplotype level (rather than the haplogroup level), which enables these researchers to use techniques such as Phylogeography or exact gene matching to determine approximate dates of migration. It was thus determined that although 12.6% of male Devonians have direct ancestral lines from Northwest Germany/Denmark, the majority of these came in migrations dated a thousand or more years before the 5th/6th century Anglo-Saxon invasions/settlement, so could not strictly speaking be referred to as Anglo-Saxon.

If one plots the percentage migration from Northwest Germany and Scandinavia (including Norway) against the percentage migration from Northern Iberia, the South West (Devon and Cornwall) clumps together with Tayside and Fife, North Wales and the Borders region of Scotland, being shifted much further towards the Northern Iberia end of the scale than any other English region. The closest is Northumbria (including Cumbria) at 68.3% from Northern Iberia, with the furthest being East Anglia at 51.2%. However this shows that even in the most ‘Germanic/Viking’ parts of England, the migrants from Northern Iberia (who later became the Celts) are still in the majority (just).