h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Further to my last post, I have received a reply from the Devon Editor. He has stated that the voting system is far from foolproof. Anyone who can disable the cookie used can submit multiple votes from the same PC, or they can use different PCs to vote many times (which is what I suspect has happened in this case). He said that the poll has been running long enough now, and will be closed today (12th September). I have sent the following reply.

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for your reply. I am afraid that your cookie did not work very
well, as on a couple of occasions when I logged on to check the vote, I was
presented with a fresh voting slip. If I had been dishonest, I could have
voted again. Perhaps you could mention the deficiencies of the voting
system when you close the poll and announce the "result???". I am sorry it
has worked out this way, but there always seems to be someone who refuses to
play by the rules. I feel ashamed that that person is a fellow Devonian.

What a pity that the poll had to end in this way.

Regards,

Bob


I would have been perfectly happy to accept any flag design, which had been fairly arrived at, but this sort of incident just leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

The person responsible for this knows who he/she is. I will say no more.


Plymouth Exile

Can someone explain what happened?

Not having checked the vote for 24 hours or so I went to do so today, and find the vote closed in apparent acrimonious circumstances.

Plymouth Exile has indicated that there may have been irregularities in the voting, and I certainly agree that from time to time there appeared to be 'block' voting (whether from multiple PCs or from a group of people in concert I don't know)

However I do not know if that significantly effected the vote - after all we had more than 300 responses (as best as I can tell).

Is there a way of summarising what happened, and if block 'cheating' happened can the more obvious elements be eliminated?

Flag #6 seemed to be the clear leader throughout the campaign (and no its not one of mine) so if something extraordinary happened in the last 24 hours can we take the position then as being reasonably representative?

According to my calcs (and this shows my weakness for statistics) the most recent vote was

Flag 1 16.3% (~55)
Flag 2 17.2% (~56)
Flag 3 5.2% (~17)
Flag 4 2.6% (~9)
Flag 5 0.3% (1?)
Flag 6 20.7% (~69)
Flag 7 5.0% (~17)
Flag 8 1.7% (~6)
Flag 9 4.4% (~15)
Flag 10 1.7% (~6)
Flag 11 12.5% (~42)
Flag 12 12.2% (~41)

I didn't see the final result, although perhaps if 'funny things happened' that would be irrelevant anyway.

Is the suggestion that the above vote is grossly inaccurate?
If so - I didn't see it (overall) although as I said - there were one or two odd movements.

Okay - I have now seen the 'final results'.
Yes there does seem to have been some last minute swings - and a flurry of votes - 395 in total????? I presume the last minute rush (and irregularity??) was pretty much toward Flag #2?????

However Flag #6 was still [just] ahead (as it has been all along). Assuming the voting anomalies' were in respect to the last minute swing I don't believe that invalidates the general result (does it???). Well done Devonian!!!

Personally I would still be happy to go with #6 - at least as a starting point for further discussion. Your thoughts????

BBC Devon don't seem to be showing an easy link to the flag results.
Is this just a timing issue or has the whole show gone off the road??

Dear Ozzie Exile,

Concerning the Devon Flag design poll, the voting pattern rapidly became a fiasco. I was a bit suspicious when voting first started, as within the first few hours, flags 2 and 6 seemed to attract relatively large numbers of votes before any of the others got going. Although flag 6 is a very similar design to flags 8 and 9, neither of the latter designs seemed to be picking up many votes (rather odd in the circumstances). I then noted that flags 2 and 6 were designs from the same person. I originally put this down to family loyalty, and within a day or two, flags 1, 11 and 12 started to pick up votes. However, when any of these designs started to challenge for the lead, flags 2 and 6 suddenly jumped a few percentage points, apparently to ensure that they stayed in the lead. I came to this conclusion, because before anyone cast their vote, they were unable to observe the result so far. Therefore, the chances of natural blocks of voting occurring (without knowledge of the current result), just as the current leaders were being caught, would have been infinitesimally small, yet they seemed to be occurring regularly.

After the first week of voting, I noted that flag 1 was gradually pulling slightly clear of flags 11 and 12, but each time it got anywhere near flag 2, another surge in voting for flags 2 and 6 occurred (especially the latter). Eventually, flag 1 eased slightly ahead of flag 2 but was still well behind flag 6. Then in the last 24 hours, flag 2 suddenly jumped by about 4 percentage points to be almost level with flag 6. To give some idea of the number of votes this must have represented, flag 1 dropped by about 5 percentage points at the same time. Anyone who knows anything about voting patterns would regard this one as extremely suspicious. Gradual upward trends in votes cast are usually indicative of a normal voting pattern, but when significant step trends become recurrent, then voting abnormalities are strongly indicated, and when such trends only occur in the voting patterns for two designs, which happen to be from the same source, then I suggest that credulity is stretched beyond any reasonable limit. Add to this the final result, that those two designs end up with almost the same number of total votes (following the final large step for flag 2), then I would contend that only one conclusion can be reached. That was the final straw, which prompted me to E-Mail the Devon Editor.

One may ask how this can be done. Unfortunately, the answer is, quite easily, either by clearing out cookies (which prevent multiple voting from the same PC), which is a simple option from the Windows control panel, or by using different PCs (very easy for anyone who has access to many PCs at a large company or a university).

I had hoped that the people of Devon would have been given the chance to express their choice in a fair and free manner, but I fear that this was not to be the case on this occasion.

Regards,
Plymouth Exile

Hmmm!

I missed the last 'burst' of activity, and whilst I had seen the initial acceleration of designs 2 and 6, I related that to a comment that Devonian made that he had talked to his mates and they were all excited about participating.

As I had personally contacted Devon County Council and a number of District Councils (and had +ve responses) I also thought that the voting might have been from work colleagues who had discussed the designs and decided to vote 'with one voice'.

Perhaps this is still true.

I would urge Devonian to respond what (if anything) he may know about the voting irregularity, including the quantum.

Having said that - I quite like design #6 myself.

I wonder if the BBC can backtrack the voting pattern and give us some guidance on what (if any) might sensibly be discarded.

Perhaps the next stage is to see what if any information we get back from Devonian, the BBC, or - whoever - and make a judgement

In any event at the end of the day it appeared that no one design got overwhelming support. There were 5 designs with >10% of the vote.

Lets see what eventuates in the next couple of days.

As you say - disppointing if the vote is invalid - but such competitions are rarely free of some 'interference' (just look at the US presidential election!)

Hi all. I am afraid the BBC isn't in a position to track how the voting patterns changed over the period of the vote. I really think the debate should move on - those of you who first proposed the flag must decide whether you want to live with the result or not. We can certainly provide some pointers on where to go from here if you really want to pursue getting a flag made. Not too sure where Devon County Council would stand on using their crest - it was granted by the King in 1926. You would definately need to get in touch to discuss it with them and you would need their permission before going ahead. Cheers.

Dear Devon Editor,

In the spirit of 'moving on' (and I can't speak for the other contributors) I would be interested in your insights on how to finalise the process of creating a flag.

Thanks

Dydh da,

recently I tried to order "Joseph Biddulph: Handbook of West Country Brythonic" and "Robert Craig: On Dornlivr in Yeh Vriton Vodern" which were recommended in your entry. Because I'm living in Germany, that's a pretty amount of action. Finally, my "British Bookshop" in Frankfurt could only tell me that both books were out of print and not available at all. What shall I do? Is there a place in the net where I can find it "online" (or at least some excerpts)? Please help me, because it is already a problem to live in Germany if you're only interested in any form of celtic language...

All the best,

Estren

Hi Estren,

I am surprised that "Handbook of West Country Brythonic" is out of print, as it wasn't that long ago that I obtained my copy via Amazon.co.uk. Have you tried Amazon? If you continue to have problems, please leave me your E-Mail address, and I will see what I can do from here in the UK.

Regards,

Plymouth Exile

I have recently been reading a book by historian and broadcaster Michael Wood, entitled 'In Search of England'.

In it Michael searches for pre (Norman) conquest England, and the ghost of imaginary 'Ulric the Saxon'.

In one chapter he visits a farm in Devon, and acknowledges the Celtic history of Devon.

He notes that

- Hoskin's noted (in the middle of the 20 century) that upland farming was largely based on land cultivated long before the arrival of the english

- Devon 'rounds' (native earthwork enclosures) survived and evidenced trading with the Romans

- the celtic language survived (the saxon conquest) in Devon for centuries

- (with respect to the farm he was investigating) King Edward in giving the land charter in 974AD, referred to the land as "in the place called in common speech by the name nymed'. Nymed is a celtic word meaning sacred grove, and this tantilisingly suggests that (half a century after Athelstan supposedly exiled the Celts from Exeter - or as some suggest Devon) that the common speech was still Celtic.

He concludes his chapter reflecting that the continuity of life 'on that windswept hill' dates back, not just past the Domesday book, but probably before the English, before the Romans, and possibly beyond.

So much for Ulric the Saxon.

Ozzie Exile,

Your findings from Michael Wood's book certainly seem to add more weight to the evidence I am currently gathering, concerning post Domesday place names in Devon. I am (slowly) examining the OS maps of Devon (mostly 1/25,000 scale), searching for Celtic derived place names, which have appeared since the Domesday Survey. It would seem unlikely that new farms, hamlets, villages and towns would have acquired Celtic names (post Domesday), if the language had become extinct by that time. The results so far definitely seem to indicate continued use of the Brythonic tongue in the post Domesday era. I hope to complete the task early next year and will reveal my findings in this forum.

Have you read Michael Wood's book 'In Search of the Dark Ages'? I was thinking of obtaining a copy.

Plymouth Exile

I tried to get a copy of 'A History of Westcountry Brythonic' by Joseph Biddulph from Amazon.

After keeping me waiting for many months (the swines) they eventually told me they could not get hold of a copy.

However, perseverance pays off. I have contacted Joseph Biddulph directly, and he tells me that he has mailed me a copy (it is cheaper too!).

(Although, as I haven't yet received it am I speaking too soon?)

If Estren (or anyone else) wants a copy they can contact Joseph themselves on (01443) 662559.

Cheers

Ozzie Exile,

I am sorry to hear about your problems in getting a copy of "A Handbook of West Country Brythonic". I suspect that Amazon is not trying very hard, but you shouldn't have such problems when dealing directly with Joseph Biddulph. However, if you do have any further problems, please don't hesitate to E-mail me, as I am sure I can help.

I would be very interested to hear what you think of it when it arrives.

Plymouth Exile

Perseverence pays off.

I have just received 'A History of Westcountry Brythonic' by (and from) Joseph Biddulph.

The booklet does make interesting reading, focussing on the ancient Celtic language of Devon (and West Somerset and Dorset) at around the beginning of the eighth century.

I have yet to fully absorb its contents, but it certainly provides some insights on the language as it was then spoken, and interestingly seems to 'distance' the Celtic language of Devon from that of Cornwall.

It is frustratingly short (36 pages) and I would love to know the source for some of the material.

Joseph sent me a copy of the 2003/4 catalogue for the titles he publishes (most are his own) but there is another 'Brythonic' title, "On Dornlivr in yeh Vriton Vodern', by Robert Craig (ISBN 897999 43 7) which also appears to be about reconstructing the Celtic language of the Westcountry.

Like 'A Handbook of Westcountry Brythonic' it costs all of £4.34, so I may be tempted.

Ozzie Exile

I tend to agree with your comments on 'A Handbook of West Country Brythonic'. I think that the reason why Joseph Biddulph separates the language from Cornish, is that he assumes that Cornish continued to evolve when West Country Brythonic (Old Devonian) became extinct (c900). I suspect that the language survived in parallel with Anglo-Saxon until a considerably later date than this, as there is evidence of a number of Brythonic words being in common use in the South West (outside Cornwall) until well into the Middle Ages or later. Some place manes in Devon seem to be derived from words which are to be found in Middle Cornish, so it is likely that 'Old Devonian' evolved along with Cornish for at least a century or two after the Norman Conquest. With that small reservation, I think that it is an excellent publication and extremely useful. Joseph Biddulph is to be congratulated.

I am a little less certain about 'On Dornlivr in Yeh Vriton Vodern' (which I have also obtained a copy of). It purports to be a modernised reconstruction of West Country Brythonic, based on the assumption that the Saxon conquest of the South never occurred, but that the Norman Conquest did. Therefore the language was heavily modified by Norman French. I find this assumption a little hard to swallow, as the Norman Conquest was a direct result of William of Normandy's claim to the Anglo-Saxon throne, so if the Saxon conquest never occurred, William would have had no such claim and the language would not have contained such a high proportion of French elements. Having said that, there is still much of interest in the book. Joseph Biddulph has asked for comments, so I will write to him to express these views.

Plymouth Exile

Hello Estren

I'm also German, writing from near Heidelberg. My wife is from Plymouth and I am very interested in British culture and history. I also think that the Pendragon flag is appropriate but would cause too much confusion with the Welsh flag. My ancestors come from Lower Saxony who also occupied Southern England. The horse is the symbol for the Saxons, as it was a 'war machine' and also a symbol of freedom and strength. Dartmoor is renowned for its ponies!

Regards Tore

I recently noticed an interesting thing in the Paul Hamlyn dictionary at home. At the beginning of the book there is an article on "The English-speaking World" where it says that in Shakespeare's time English was virtually confined to the Isle of Britain. It quotes Richard Mulcaster (Shakespeare's contemporary) as saying 'The English tongue is of small reach, stretching no further than this island of ours, nay not there over all'. The article goes on to say that "Mulcaster had in mind not only those varieties of Celtic spoken in the Scottish highlands, Wales, DEVONSHIRE (my emphasis) and Cornwall, but also those dialects of Scandinavian spoken in North-west Scotland, the Hebrides and the Western Isles". It seems that the authors of the dictionary knew that Celtic was still spoken in Devonshire in Shakespeare's time, which is yet more evidence to confirm that the language survived there into the 16th Century.

Einion,

Interesting.

Can you provide any more details on the Paul Hamlyn dictionary and the article you refer to?

There seem to be numerous references to the survival of the Celtic language in Devon until the late middle ages, and every piece of evidence helps us understand better.

Ozzie Exile,

In full, it's the Paul Hamlyn Encyclopedic World Dictionary, published by The Hamlyn Publishing Group Limited, of London, New York, Sydney and Toronto, this particular edition apparently published at Hamlyn House, Feltham, Middlesex, England, 1971. "The English-Speaking World" was written by the editorial consultant, Simeon Potter, along with four or five introductory articles by the other contributors to the book. I hope that detail is satisfactory.
I noticed another website a while ago which suggested a Celtic language (known as Cumbric or Northern British) survived in Cumbria possibly until the Reformation (however, their suggestion that it may have been destroyed by the ministrations of the Protestant clergy seemed a bit far-fetched), so survival to such a date in Devon certainly seems feasible.

Thankyou and well done to those responsible for shifting this part of Sense of Place.
On the subject of Celtic language survival,I was wondering if anyone here knows the approximate number of Ancient Brythonic words in the Devon dialect. If I remember rightly, there are around 50-100 such words in the standard form of English, but I assume it would be considerably higher in Devonian English.