h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

At least we're good at that...

Oh yes, I've written quite a bit here, over the past year or two. There may be a little real meaning buried in my outpourings, I don't know. But I wouldn't put money on it.

I've forgotten where we started. What would *what* have been like?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I looked back to the beginning myself; I was just being lazy. The starting point was: <>

Yes, I believe they were just unspoken. These ideas weren't invented, they can't have been, otherwise they couldn't've existed prior to their 'invention'. They were discovered. Life before this was much the same, I think. The same judgements were made before as after; the codification of these concepts might've helped to clarify judgements, but (IMO) didn't change them much.

I don't think we've 'gone wrong' anywhere, have we? We just got diverted a few times.

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So are you happy with the way things are or do you think there is huge room for improvement or somewhere inbetween?
If so, what would be the most beneficial way to start to improve the way things are?

Of course there's always room for improvement.

<>

My choice is social: The cult of the individual has all but taken over our (Western) societies, to the extent that a criminal's rights are scrupulously protected, but the victims get little or no consideration. Of course the rights and duties of the criminal and the victim are identical, even if the way they behave is not. And society has a duty to protect its membership, by acting directly and openly against those who try to set aside the rights of others. There *can* be a danger of individuals being suppressed in favour of the many - this is the opposite of the cult of individuality - but we're far enough away from there that we don't need to worry just yet!

I could ramble on about this for ages, but you get the idea. I believe this issue is the most important one facing our societies today, by a large margin.

Pattern-chaser

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I don't know if I have talked about it here or elsewhere so if you've read it before skip ahead with my sincere apologies...
I have for sometime thought that we went wrong when we first started to quantify things. Once we quantify we develop greed. Now with greed we have to collect and covet. So therefore if we didn't have to quantify the world would be in much better shape.
Now the problem is that you can't unlearn something as ingrained as quantifying. So how do you remove its significance?
Do we need a new language that leaves out terms of measurement?
Do we just outlaw counting?
Or is a system of education that devalues (yes I know this is a quantifying term) "having"?
I have a few more ideas, but you get the point.
And is this then a more compatible way of instigating the changes that you suggested above?

<<...we went wrong when we first started to quantify things. Once we quantify we develop greed. Now with greed we have to collect and covet.>>

You describe this as though it was an actual event. On Friday October 13th 4004 BCE we adopted the practice of covetousness. We both know I'm joking, and there was no such actual event, but expressing it as you have makes it a more difficult point to appreciate, I think. Put your way, is also sounds like there was a time when we (humans) weren't greedy. I don't think there was. Greed is a characteristic of the human animal, isn't it?

But hold on, your original point is about quantification: counting. Awareness of number has some advantages, alongside the drawbacks you describe. Mathematics has proved useful during our recent development, for a start.

<<...if we didn't have to quantify, the world would be in much better shape.>>

How and why do you think that is? Neither your point, nor its correctness, are obvious to me. Perhaps I'm being dense?

<<...you can't unlearn something as ingrained as quantifying. So how do you remove its significance?>>

What aspect of its significance is it that bothers you? Why do you want to remove it?

<>

I don't think so, but I'm open to being convinced....

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I guess you need to know that I would be quite happy being a hunter and gatherer with a life expectancy of 30 years (I'm 35 and realise I would now be dead, but you get that).

OK, but it would be good if you could address the questions I asked, instead of each of us making statements that are not explored or expanded upon. It's the difference between two simultaneous monologues and a genuine dialogue. I think that's why our discussion has been a bit fragmented.

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Good point *hangs head in shame - gets over it*

I tried to think about what common thread all of the world "problems" had. Most people try and blame it on different religions so that the blame is put on someone completely different to themselves. So if both sides of religion think the other side is wrong then there is no way to solve that conflict. Especially when "our side" believes in freedom of thought and speech.
So religion wasn't really the answer.
So then I thought what exacty do I see the problems around me (stay closer to home, solve the small before looking to the big - trial run etc) and I saw WANTING as a major problem. Especially when everyone seems to want more than they can get.
OK so I tried a little experiment on myself. Unless I specifically needed it for immediate survival I didn't really want it and so would forget about it. Suddenly found money in the bank. Feeling much happier about what I already had (I had made some wise decisions in the past and actually had everything I NEEDED)
So, thought bigger again. People often want what they can't have, just because they can't have it. So a faction of society steals for the extra they need. Sets up feelings of guilt etc in some, enhances drug problems... etc etc etc.
So why do people think they always need more? Advertising? Maybe, I've seen plenty of beer advertising but have never wanted to buy any... So not in my direct experience so I'll leave it alone. Keeping up with the Joneses - valid, no one wants to feel inferior and we seem to value possessions and having. Basing self worth on how much you can get - valid though stupid.
Then I looked global and similar trends existed.
So if we all want more, especially if someone else wants or has it and we are going to feel bad about ourselves if we don't get it - then what is the answer.
People wont believe you if you say to them - you don't REALLY want that. It's a symbol for something else that is missing in your life. They are going to ignore you. So what then is a possible answer. Remove the measuring. Not very practical. Was there a time when there wasn't measuring, cave men, did they measure? Not formally. Native Australians had no language for counting it was one or many (this is a bit of an exageration and other considerations need to be taken into account, but it will do for this discussion - and there are many parts of their society that are a beacon to other societies). So was there greed before counting? There was ofcourse the need for survival and being able to get what you need, but many cultures had systems of ensuring that ALL were looked after.
So if I can't measure what I've got against what everyone else has will I be happier? If that could happen globally would we al be in better shape?
Did that answer your question or is it just more waffle? I'll try again later.....
Have a great day.

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I think the focus is wider than religion; anyone *different* will do!

<>

Indeed.

<>

Isn't this just people competing for resources, which is something every living creature does? I admire you for adopting the perspective you have. Not everyone is comfortable with that world view. I certainly agree that a more accepting perspective will minimise stress and maximise your chances of achieving happiness.

I am rather less convinced that there is a course, perhaps similar to yoour own chosen path, which would be attractive to, and suitable for, large sections of the community.

<>

In terms of large numbers of people, rather than the odd person here and there, I don't think there is an answer. There may be different answers that work for certain people, but most people will always be affected - maybe dominated - by the competition and wanting, even when they already have more than they need. In focussing on this issue, I think you may have chosen an insoluble problem. Ah well.

Look what I just found: - there's an ANT smiley! Excellent!



Juvenile really, playing with little ant smileys....

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Oh my... Don't let them near the picnic...