h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Elect/reprobate

"you state that whatever you do is irrelevent since you've accepted Jesus etc. So you can do every forbidden thing and that's alright?"

Ah! Good point. What's the incentive for living like a Christian if you can't lose salvation? That the world may know. When we live like heathens, we risk keeping someone from becoming a Christian. They see us and say, "How are they any different from me?"

Also, I can testify that the Spirit of God is a great comfort in life, and not dwelling in that Spirit is rather miserable.

Firstly, paganism as practiced today- and there's no specific way to do it, and no specific 'gods' as such- is not an old religion but a new faith (NOT a religion, as I said) based on what we'd like to think they did in the past. In the past the turning of the seasons was celebrated for that reason only, but as I said before it's easier to anthropomorphise this and that's what it is based on. Also, we may use the names of old deities (Aphrodite, Brighid etc.) but they're seen in a different way than they presumably were originally.
Care to explain how this 'demonstrates a severe lack of faith'? Your religion's bloody old, and so's your God.
How can you say that the best alternative to abortion is to let the person themselves decide if they want to die, yet be against euthanasia? Which is what that situation would be?
I believe that whatever you believe will happen to you, happens. Simple as that. Therefore everyone is right, since they believe they are- FOR THEMSELVES. This does not affect other people's beliefs. Therefore, you can believe I'm hellbound, but that will not work since I don't believe in it. Simple! I can believe it because I'm not a member of a religion which condemns others. I can believe this also because we make our own realities, and they don't affect anyone else, do they. Who's to say that Hindus and Buddhists don't get reincarnated? There are many cases of this happening. Also, isn't that like, if someone says "I dreamed this last night" and another saying, "You didn't, I never do so it can't possibly happen. To anyone." Besides, Paganism does not have an official afterlife procedure. Opinions are mixed and no one tells anyone else they're wrong, just like
Humanity is hopelessly doomed without faith in itself.
And who cares who's right? Only if your religion is founded on making non-members feel bad.
I understand you thinking yours is the only one truth, and the difference between your religion and my faith/philosophy is that I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. To you, you're not, and that's all that matters. It's none of my business to tell you you're wrong. However, I object to being told that I'm losing out and will be punished for not participating in something I want no part in anyway. Why is this so hard to accept?
btw, the politically correct Pagan community is very keen on multi-faithing. There are practicing Christians, even Catholics, who are Pagan or Wiccan, and no one has any problem with this. The two are not incompatible; Christians have demonstrated so, and they must be right!
Ok. If they had this goat business- fair enough, I've seen the painting (John Everett Millais, very nice), but uncomfortable for the goat- what about the majority of the world who did not have the opportunity to hear God's message, even if they'd wanted to? That's not very fair on them. God surely would have wanted them for Christians too, and found some way to reach them.

'Not dwelling in the Spirit is miserable'- I'm not miserable. I had a wonderful time on May 1st (happy Beltane, btw) and am comfortable with my and other's beliefs (except when they are forced on me.) Also, you having always dwelt in the Spirit (or at least since you were old enough to make an informed decision) how would you know the misery of being out of it?

I'll get my Network of Spies (TM) onto Biblical errors (and not be tempted to go into the issue of mistranslation, misinterpretation, copying errors and the Christian Humanists) but here's a thought:
God says "I am the Lord your God, I am a Jealous God" approx. If there are no other deities, and he should know, what's he got to be jealous of?! if the things he's jealous of are merely fabrications, he's got nowt to be frightened of and shouldn't be so petty.
See you about.

btw. the word Heathen is now generally used to denote followers of the modern Norse religion, which along with Christianity is the official faith of Iceland.

So the only reason for being a true Christian is to show off? Not for yourself, your own peace of mind or personal wellbeing, or a desire to be a better person, but to brag?
please clarify if I am desperately wrong (well, of course I am... but y'know) since it's easy to misunderstand.

Thinking that we humans make our own reality is a nice thought, but rather unrealistic. How pompous have we become that we think we can destroy or create heaven and hell in our own minds? If I think that cows are carnivorous, that doesn't make cows carnivorous. Why do you consider yourself so important that you decide where you go when you die or who created the universe? You may be right about where you're going when you die, but one of us is wrong. Regardless of what you think, there are absolute truths out there. What if many of the great heroes of history believed as you do, that everything is relative and there are no absolute truths to be discovered? We would still be in the Stone Age.

I apologize if that seemed harsh, but I thought it was neccesary.

"Only if your religion is founded on making non-members feel bad. "

I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm trying to save you from hell. I could just ignore you and stop caring about you, but I won't. What kind of a religion abandons all other people besides its own followers? Christ cared for people, even the ones that lived exactly how he told them not to and we are to do the same.

"Also, you having always dwelt in the Spirit (or at least since you were old enough to make an informed decision) how would you know the misery of being out of it?"

I became a Christian of my own free will. I wasn't born and brainwashed at an early age. I actually became a Christian some three years ago, and believe me, it was an informed decision.

"If there are no other deities, and he should know, what's he got to be jealous of?!"

There are no other dieties, but people still worship things other than Him. They worship money, power, fame, sex, etc. These are what He is jealous of.

Josh, if Jesus was around today, do you think he would be a right-wing Christian?

Alji

You may be right about where you're going when you die, but one of us is wrong.> Sorry, I don't understand this. One one hand you're saying my beliefs are incorrect and consequently I'll end up in an afterlife dictated by you, then you say that I may be correct but only one of us can be, implying you are wrong. I am in no position to, and would never dream of, telling you where you're going to end up. As I've said before, that's none of my business, would be extremely impolite (ever considered it's not good etiquette to tell someone they're bound for damnation?) and what I think about it won't change anything for you. You live by your rules and believe you will be judged by them.
I consider it pompous/self-important etc. of you to think that your ideas must be forced on others, and even more so to think they're universally correct and apply to everyone.
I could ask, what kind of religion is it where those in power try and kill all besides its own followers? Christ cared for people, but throughout history the Church itself has proved it does not. Unless you count burning them as caring.
As for Christ, he did not try and convert by threatening the heretic with hellfire etc. He judged them on their own merit and actions. I doubt he was overly bothered, as long as they were basically decent, which is how I'd prefer things to be.
Strange! I don't feel particularly cared for. If you cared that much you'd respect my beliefs a little more. (This is different from informed debate, btw I respect your right to worship as you choose- hence you could appreciate that whatever you believe about me doesn't matter. It's not going to make me feel bad, feel guilty, get married, stop finding women attractive, or convert.
You became a Christian of your own free will, certainly, but you mention you were of a Christian family/community/education system etc. I was supposed to be in a secular school but their sneaked-in CofE prayers I consider brainwashing. Hence, you weren't entirely objective, were you? and I bet you didn't study comparative religion beforehand.
I worship none of those things you mentioned since they're all human, not devine, constructs. Most people in fact don't worship these. However, they're bad only when abused and in themselves incapable of harm. What I worship is a different manifestation of the divine to your God and every deity throughout history- including the ones that came before your religion. To me they're all the same. I don't worship a deity as such, but aspects of it.
So, what about the octuplets?

"Would Jesus be a right wing Christian?"

It isn't a quest of whether he would be. He IS. Jesus isn't dead. Right wing Christians use Christ's very words as their basis for living, therefore Jesus, were He in His earthly body, would certainly be a right wing Christian. Consider: would Mohammed be a Muslim if he were alive today?

I have read and studied the words and action of Jesus, and even in His day, He acted like a right wing Christian. Jesus confronted people, made them uncomfortable, showed them just how lost they were. Jesus was even impolite at times. It is better to be impolite to someone than to disregard whether they live or die.

"To some degree, you have to appreciate that all of us have created our own realities"

We create our own preferences and sometimes we can change the world as a whole, or at least part of it. I'm not contesting that. But to say that we can create or modify gods to our liking and expect them to be real and to hear us and take care of us is preposterous.

"please explain why I have a 'severe lack of faith'?"

Faith is believing what one cannot see. The only thing you seem to believe in as far as religion is concerned is yourself. You aren't perfect. Neither am I. We can't expect to make ourselves perfect either. We need something bigger than ourselves to help us and if you cannot bring yourself to even believe in anything bigger than yourself unless you create it, then you lack faith.

"Creating our own ideas is better than living spoonfed off handed-down ones."

I don't believe in creating ideas. I believe in discovering ideas that have already been created. I believe that God created everything and all the ideas ever discovered fit into the catergory of everything. Rather than creating reality, my goal is to discover it.

"(ever considered it's not good etiquette to tell someone they're bound for damnation?)"

It's not very good etiquette to simply let them go to hell either is it? There are more important things in this world than being polite. If you think about it, CPR is not very polite, but if it will save someone's life, isn't it worth it? As a Christian, winning converts and saving lives are quite similar. I'm doing this because I care about you, not because I thing you are wrong about everything or because I don't like you. I've been praying for you, if that means anything to you.

"I worship none of those things you mentioned since they're all human, not devine, constructs."

I'm not accusing you of anything, but let me clarify that when I say worship, I don't mean bowing down and saying prayers. I mean obsession, letting these things rule your life. Like I said, that wasn't an accusation, just a clarification.

"As for Christ, he did not try and convert by threatening the heretic with hellfire etc. He judged them on their own merit and actions. I doubt he was overly bothered, as long as they were basically decent, which is how I'd prefer things to be."

Read the Bible. It will tell you differently.

"you mention you were of a Christian family/community/education system etc."

That's not entirely correct. My school is secular, though I would say its faculty are overwhelmingly Christian. The students are a different story. And as for my exposure to other religions, I have had plenty. I grew up in Japan where virtually everyone in our neighborhood was Buddhist. I have three dear aunts who are Hindu. I have a friend in Chicago who is Muslim. These are all people I met and befriended before committing to Christianity. Recieving Christ was a monumentous moment in my life. I did so in my own bedroom with no assistance, and my life changed dramatically, though not overnight. I can't tell you what an incredible feeling it is to be in the presence of God. It has no comparison. I felt that and feel it now and it's real. It is not something I made up to please myself, but God Himself. And God is so much cooler than I am.

I could have chosen any other religion, or even made up my own, but I knew that I wanted something tried and true and something that I could know was real.

"So, what about the octuplets?"

Have you heard of the McCaughey septuplets? The McCaughey couple, a Christian couple, decide that instead of abortion, they would use prayer to keep the maximum number of babies alive. All seven are alive and well at three years of age now. I can still remember the look on that mother's face when she said, "Tell those doctors to come over and show me which babies I should have killed, and which ones should I have let live?"

So the Bible is lying when it says Jesus died for our sins.

Alji

"It isn't a quest of whether he would be. He IS. Jesus isn't dead. Right wing Christians use Christ's
very words as their basis for living, therefore Jesus, were He in His earthly body, would certainly be a
right wing Christian. Consider: would Mohammed be a Muslim if he were alive today?"

Whilst (a) Christ's being Christian is a physical impossibility, given the unfortunate fact that he was dead before it officially began, I also find fault with your conviction that he would be right wing. As far as my reading of the gospels goes, he hung out with prostitutes and looked out for the poor and those in social situations frowned upon by the Establishment - hardly something the right wing seems to like doing. You argue that we are making our own realities, Josh, and that you only go on what is written in the Bible - since when did Jesus claim affiliation with the political right? I do believe you are seeing what you would like to see here.

"As a Christian, winning converts and saving lives are quite similar. I'm doing this
because I care about you, not because I thing you are wrong about everything or because I don't like
you. I've been praying for you, if that means anything to you."

Eh? If you don't think we're wrong about everything, why try to convert us?

"I could have chosen any other religion, or even made up my own, but I knew that I wanted something
tried and true and something that I could know was real."

You want a religion that's stood the test of time? Convert to Hinduism - it's been around a good sight longer than Christianity.

So left-wing Christians are out of favour with Jesus? I have the feeling He would have accepted all political positions.
Would Mohammed be an Islamic extremist terrorist? I hope not!
All political shades can be confrontational, impolite etc. That doesn't make the Right sound very pleasant... btw, what do you define the Right to be? (characteristics etc.) just a question.
All religion is based on personal interpretation, though. This is modifying gods to our liking, just like you modify yours to support your beliefs and other denominations do likewise. Nowt wrong there, it just happens.
Ok... you said that believing in old gods and old traditions is a severe lack of faith, then go on to say I only seem to believe in myself. I believe more-or-less in the old gods, which you can't see, obviously, but which manifest themselves. (Not as simple as that tho.)
Hence, by your terms I have faith. I can assure you I think there are far more important things than me in the world.
Discovery implies keeping an open mind and redefining your ideas to fit evidence, rather than saying 'Whatever the reasons, this is wrong because <> says so and it has always been like that.'
Which side would you have been on in the Reformation?
CPR no one would object to, love. I think there are better ways we could spend our debating time than playing My-God's-Better-Than-Yours.
I know no one who lets sex, money, fame, power etc. rule their life, if they did I would think them very sad... and in need of help.
You may have relatives/friends of different religions, but do you tell them they are wrong too and try to convert them? I should imagine that wears thin...
Here's a summary of my 'made-up religion': trees are real. Trees go green in summer. This is because of chemical reactions based on seasonal changes. We know why it happens, the scientific explanation, but it's still bloody marvellous, no? That's what I worship, and it never ceases to impress me. So I can be sure my faith is a real and constantly-demonstrated one.
I heard about the McCaugheys- I also noted that the woman was so determined to keep them all that she kept almost motionless for several months to give them the best chance of survival. Prayer makes a difference, certainly; that comes into my previous definition of magick. However, although septuplets are extreme, octuplets carry even more risks and much depends on the health of the babies (in this case- the 8- they were weak to begin with.) and the condition of the mother. It's all relative, but I don't contest that belief makes a difference (it's a big part of my faith after all.)
How about Siamese twin operations? this is the kind of retro-active abortion you said would be better, since they are necessary to keep at least one alive, even if it's known one won't survive.
(I prayed for you too- tho I don't call it prayer- but not to convert you, just that we'd have a more level playing field.

Evenin'?

I'm still here, Ma'am.

You'll do!

Loved your photo Mandragora, but is green your colour?

Alji

aye... does it not suit?
I'd like to be that colour in real life. That'd b*gger up racial profiling for sure.