A Conversation for Peter Pan and Cyberspace: concepts created by writers of fiction

Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 1

a girl called Ben

Ok, I have cut out the bits which were outside the scope of the entry, and I feel that this is almost ready for Peer Review.

I just have to read the Gibson first...

Any other comments on this new, revised, (slightly shorter) version much appreciated.

***B


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 2

Mund

[A BIT OF PROOF-READING - SUGGESTIONS ARE MARKED IN CAPITALS; BITS I HAVEN'T RIPPED TO SHREDS ARE MARKED BY THREE DOTS. I'M IMPRESSED BY THE WAY YOU'VE EXTRACTED COHERENT THEMES AND AVOIDED INTERESTING DEAD-ENDS. SOME OF WHICH I WILL NOW REINTRODUCE. SORRY.]

Every now and again, someone adds a concept to the human meme-pool. Many of these are first postulated in scientific works, but some of THEM spring from works of fiction.

...

If we look at the political concerns of writers in the 20th and 19th centuries we find them dealing with tyranny and the mechanised state, and the vulnerability of individuals.

Joseph Heller created an entire novel around the concept of the government making sure that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Catch 22 was the SYSTEM that kept pilots flying COMBAT missions. The doctor could stop you flying [DELETE STUFF] if you were crazy, but you had to ask him to do so. If you asked him to stop you flying combat missions, it proved you weren't crazy.

George Orwell worked for a while for the BBC, in Room 101. This was the number that he used in his novel 1984 to describe the room where the worst possible thing that could be done to you would be done. This was the room where Winston Smith's personality was deconstructed. Every individual has their own greatest fear. This fear - whatever it might be - was what was prepared and inflicted on them in Room 101. [THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THIS - EVERYONE HAS A FATAL WEAKNESS, AND "THEY" CAN DISCOVER AND USE IT.]

Orwell saw an advertisement for a self-improvement course showing the photograph of a rather unpleasant man who offered to 'be your big brother'. The idea of an all-recording, all-knowing state came from the mass observation research done in Britain in the 1930s. He combined THE TWO CONCEPTS, with the chilling phrase [INSERT ']Big Brother is Watching You[INSERT ']. Remember it every time you use a loyalty card in a store, or pass a CCTV camera, or send an email. In another phrase from another era - 'We have the technology' [AND 'WE CAN REBUILD HIM' - LOOKING FORWARD TO FRANKENSTEIN?].

Orwell GIVES US Orwellian, DENOTING a highly organized and brutal totalitarian society (THOUGH HE HAD MANY MORE IDEAS THAN THIS). Franz Kafka wrote a large number of books about the impotence of individuals swept up into governmental, legal or BUREAUCRATIC madness. He also covered fear, paranoia and impotence in many forms, as well as the outsider syndrome. As a result, Kafkaesque has come to mean having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality.

...

The classic exposition OF the shadow side of human nature is Robert Louis Stevenson's sinister story about the dark side of a man's character. Dr JEKYLL and Mr Hyde preceded the published works of Freud by a decade and those of Jung by a generation. Less sinister because it holds out the promise of redemption, is the character of Scrooge[,] who is probably Charles Dickens' most famous creation. He is the miser who hates other people to be happy, exploits his employees, and regards Christmas as humbug. These days, perhaps, he has a point [-] the commercialisation of Christmas suggests that the pendulum may have swung too far.

J M Barrie gave us two reciprocal [I DON'T THINK THEY'RE RECIPROCAL: MORE MIRROR-IMAGE, BOTH IN PRACTICAL TERMS - NOT GROWING UP/GROWING UP - AND OTHER TERMS - MALE HERO WITH OCCASIONAL MOMENTS OF UNACKNOWLEDGED WEAKNESS/ABSOLUTELY SOLID NURTURER (NANA THE DOG IS AN EVEN BETTER MODEL (WHAT A NAME!), AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT BARRIE AND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS SON, TO WHOM THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN?] characters. Peter Pan is the boy who never grows up. Some men never leave their mothers, others are stuck in a sartorial time-warp, and others try to hang desperately on to receding youth by dating younger and younger girls. Dorian Grey might be considered the dark side of Peter Pan. Oscar Wilde created THIS character who never SEEMED TO AGE, despite HIS life of decadence and debauchery. The MARKS of sin showed up all right, but only on a portrait he kept hidden away. Barrie's other character, Wendy, is the little girl who grows up all too soon, and takes on the role of mothering even smaller [AND SOME OLDER OR REFUSING-TO-AGE] children. And hence, of course, the Wendy House. Although Barrie appears to approve whole-heartedly of Wendy, in real life, Wendys are often in perilously difficult situations. [I'M NOT SURE YOU'VE DEALT WITH THE WHOLE OF WENDY HERE, AND DOES SHE QUALIFY AS AN EMBLEMATIC AND EPONYMIC CHARACTER ANYWAY?]

A more explicitly unpleasant [OR DISTURBING - LOLITA HERSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY APPEAR UNPLEASANT] view of young girls is provided by NABOKOV, who gave A name to something which was un-named and unacknowledged before the publication of Lolita[REMOVE THE ;]. This is the story of a man sexually attracted to a 'nymphet'; Lolita is pre-pubescent at the beginning of the book, and although the narrator makes the point that he is not the first to love her physically [HOW MIGHT THIS REDEEM HIM?], the book caused an outrage when it was published in the US in the 1950s. [THE POINT OF LOLITA FOR THIS DISCUSSION IS SURELY THE AMBIGUITY - IS IT THE GIRL WHO GOES OUT TO ATTRACT OR THE DIRTY OLD MAN WHO SEEKS YOUNG FLESH? OR IS IT THE MAN WHO MAY NEVER HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS KIND OF THING BEFORE, BLAMING A "TOO-KNOWING" YOUNG GIRL FOR THE CHASM HE IS FALLING INTO, MORE OR LESS WILLINGLY?]

Sherlock Holmes could not really be described as 'dysfunctional' [OH YES HE COULD] though he is decidedly odd. Conan Doyle's famous scientific detective gives us HOLMESIAN, WHICH CAN DESCRIBE SOMEONE WHO WORKS with forensic exactitude and deductive reasoning to establish the sequence of events. Conan Doyle also gives us Mycroft who was Sherlock's brother, who is odd, but in a different way. Mycroft was cleverer than Sherlock, but far lazier, and less well known. [I ALWAYS READ MYCROFT AS SOMEONE WITH REAL MENTAL PROBLEMS, WHO IN EFFECT NEVER LEFT HIS CLUB BECAUSE HE COULDN'T FUNCTION IN THE REAL WORLD. IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY YOU WILL BE LOOKED AFTER IN OAK PANELLED ROOMS.] Robert Robinson refers to his question-setter as 'Mycroft' in the radio quiz Brain of Britain. [YOU MIGHT BE TEMPTED TO MENTION THE H2G2 CONTRIBUTOR, BUT OF COURSE YOU SHOULDN'T.]

The shining opposite of all these characters is Pollyanna - the little girl who always looked on the bright side of life [A MENTION HERE OF THE LIFE OF BRIAN?]. Eleanor Porter wrote the novel about the determinedly optimistic child who always found good in any situation in 1913. Of course, there are those who would say that this behaviour is as dysfunctional as any of the others mentioned here. [THERE MUST BE MORE OPTIMISTIC EXAMPLES, AND THEN THERE IS BILLY LIAR.]

...

Frankenstein was in fact the creator, not the monster; he tried to create the perfect man, but it all went horribly wrong. In 1816 Lord Byron, John Polidori, the poet SHELLEY [REMOVE THE ,] and SHELLEY's 19 year old wife Mary [REMOVE THE ,] whiled away a stormy and tempestous summer writing ghost stories. Mary SHELLEY's story of science out of control was one of the earliest flickers of doubt about the supremacy of progress.

Cyberspace - [anyone read any Gibson?] [YES, BUT THAT'S TOO BIG A JOB FOR A MERE PROOFREADER.]

The Doctor Who team at the BBC invented the Tardis (standing for Time And Relative Demensions in Space). Although its purpose is as a means of transport, it has come to refer to something which is bigger on the inside than it appears on the outside. This is an observable feature of a surprising number of things, including most handbags [MENTION MARY POPPINS, THE ARCHETYPE, AND THERE WE COME UP WITH ANOTHER OPTIMISTIC EXAMPLE].

In 1921 the CZECH author Karel Capek produced his play R.U.R (Rossum's Universal Robots) which featured machines created to simulate human beings. The roots of the word Robot go back to feudal times, and the word 'robota' refers to work which is a duty, and not done for love or for remuneration. In Capek's play the robots show distinct similarities to Frankenstein's monster when they run amok and try to wipe out the human race. Isaac Azimov suggested the three rules of robotics in his science fiction of the 1950s, specifically to prevent this from happening. [YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SAY WHAT THEY ARE, FOR A NON-SCIENCE-FICTION AUDIENCE. INCIDENTALLY, THE LAWS OF ROBOTICS ARE THE MOST POWERFUL THINGS ASIMOV GAVE US. THEY ARE HOPELESSLY OPTIMISTIC, BUT ALSO LOGICALLY NECESSARY IF ROBOTS ARE TO BE SUBSERVIENT TO HUMANITY, WHICH MOST OF US WOULD PROBABLY WANT.]

[IF YOU HAVE ROBOTS, WHAT ABOUT GOLEMS?]

Conclusion

The 19th Century PRODUCED great scientific and technological progress, and the 20th Century took those advances and used them to kill and control more individuals than ever before. It is not surprising that many [REMOVE of the] writers of fiction were ADDRESSING distrust of science in the 19th century, distrust of government in the 20th century, and the dark side of the human psyche throughout the period.

They had to create new concepts [SOMETIMES BY HARKING BACK TO OLDER IDEAS FROM MYTHOLOGY OR FAIRY TALES - A LARGE, RELATED TOPIC] in order to do so, and these concepts resonated so much with us all that the names they coined have entered into the language.

Our language is the stronger for it, and our meme-pool the deeper.

[BRACING MYSELF FOR THE GROANS OF ANGUISH, I NOW POST THE MESSAGE...]


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 3

a girl called Ben

Wow, Mund!

Thank you. I'll incorporate what seems good to me, and reserve the right to ignore the rest.

Re: Wendy - now only used in Wendy-house. She has not really entered into the language in the way Peter Pan has, but she is interesting because she is his opposite. I only noticed the Peter Pan / Dorian Grey link when I was actually writing the article.

Re: Mary Poppins - she is emblematic, but does anyone actually use the phrase in conversation? People do say someone is "a real Pollyanna", or that they are "caught in a Catch 22 situation", but I have never heard anyone use Mary Poppins in that way. I'm not saying they dont do it, just that I havent heard it done.

I didn't want to explicitly mention either the Bionic Man or the Life of Brian - people will either get the references or not get the referenece. Though of the two, the Bionic Man might deserve a mention. But I am not sure which came first, the concept or the TV show.

Re: Lolita - I'll include what you have suggested in a re-write. It is years since I have read it, but I got the impression that when HH realised that she had had sex at the summer camp, he lost some respect for her and felt it was ok for him to start having sex with her himself. As I said, I read it a long time ago. I take on your points about the fact that she is a temptress not an innocent.

Well Barrie was clearly not someone you would leave alone with young boys... Maybe there is another entry to write about Barrie, Lewis Carole and others.

I didn't include the laws of robotics for brevity's sake, and because I couldn't remember them. But you are right about the additional comments, because they are so unlikely and because they are an indication that someone at least has paid attention to the story of Frankenstein.

I'm not really sure which concepts mentioned hark back to myth or fairly tales - and my point is that by the 19th and 20th centuries myths and fairy tales were not enough to provide the necesary metaphors and parables for human experience. I think I will say that explicitly.

Thanks again for such a detaild decrypt - I appreciate it.

Ben


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 4

Mund

Dear Ben,

No probs. It started off as a proof-read and then I got really involved - you concentrated it so that it was much more engaging than the original discussion.

Hans Christian Andersen and the Brothers Grimm worked and published in the 19th century. There are various dark tales, especially in the Grimms' collection (just looking at the list reminds me why I didn't like reading them when I was little), and I thought there were stories of mechanical men, which might tie in with Frankenstein, but a quick look gives me no clues.

Think of Jason planting the dragon's teeth to raise an army. An animation called "The Fool of the World and the Flying Ship" (Cosgrove Hall, from a few Christmases ago) was based on Russian folk tales and featured the planting of twigs to raise an army. But anyway, your piece is about words which have entered the language, and none of this is relevant.

Looking at Andersen, however, there's Ugly Duckling, Emperor's New Clothes, Snow Queen, Ice Maiden (I've just looked at a list of his collection, and it's enormous!). And the Grimms have Cinderella and therefore Fairy Godmother, Sleeping Beuaty and therefore Good Fairy/Bad Fairy.

I have (occasionally) heard Mary Poppins used to mean "impossibly prim and proper".

Your major point that there was something different about the "age of science", a need for new stories, new metaphors, is interesting, and maybe there's room for something else here - another article. What is different and modern about Frankenstein? Surely the fact of a man making a man, which you might associate with the ferment after the Origin of Species, yet it came 50 years earlier (than the publication). There are hints of mechanical men in Greek mythology (it's late, so I can't look this all up). And there have supposedly been real mechanical animals for the last thousand years (Byzantium, Chatsworth...?)

Prometheus - Frankenstein - Pinocchio?

This is going too far, so I'll curb my frenzied brain and try to go to bed.

Ed


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 5

a girl called Ben

There is definitely scope for an article on mechanical men...!

(All excited now!)

Why don't you go first, and I'll make some suggestions too.

a golem called Ben


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 6

Munchkin

This entry is definately improving, and throwing off new articles, which is scary. I think, as it stands, it is a good look at its topic, how science and the modern world have thrown up new memes, and is probably best kept to that, before it explodes in several different directions. If only I'd read some William Gibson, but I could never get into it, too many big boys toys and aren't computers cool.


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 7

a girl called Ben

Mund, Dr Munchkin,

I have corrected the typos you spotted, and made some of the other changes you suggested. I actually decided to remove the laws of robotics because the article is long enough, and they are outside the scope; and you might want to keep them for yourself if you do the one on the history of the mechanical man.

I have included your comments on Lolita.

I decided to miss out Billy Liar, because 'Liar' is an existing word. Also I am not sure he is that optimistic.

If you want to put together a sentance or two on Mary Poppins, I may include it. As I said, I have never heard 'Mary Poppins' used.

Myths and Legends - I think my whole theses is that Myths and Legends were NOT enough any more. We needed new parables.

Looks like lots of scope for more articles.

I printed out the whole thread, highighted the suggestions, and was amazed that there were not any positive ones in there. The only one which might be allowable is 'Tolkeinesque' - actually I SHOULD include it - maybe to prove the point that the old mythologies are not enough any more.

I remembered Polyanna all by my little self.

Thanks again

B


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 8

DoctorGonzo

I haven't read any Gibson, but I remember reading about cyberspace in cultural studies. There's bound to be academic articles out there on cyberspace, possibly on the web.

I'll have a look when I get home, but I lost a lot of stuff when I moved smiley - sadface

DG


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 9

DoctorGonzo

John Fiske's 'Reading the Popular' may have something on cyberspace, I'm not 100% sure though...

DG


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 10

Mund

I can't add anything about Mary Poppins, so leave her out.


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 11

Mund

Incidentally, "Frankenstein, Big Brother..." is such a long title that it stretches the page wider than the 800/600 I usually use. This is unavoidable as far as I can see.


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 12

Mund

I've started a new thread on the subject of Manufactured Men: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F19585?thread=130236. It looks like a very adventurous topic (=hard), but there are lots of interesting ideas circling like vultures. Please join in (with ideas or vultures - that's up to you).


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 13

a girl called Ben

All done now and up for PR - and I have made the title *slightly* shorter.

***B


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 14

Mund

Gibson may say he hadn't seen Bladerunner, but he might have read the book.


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 15

a girl called Ben

And he might be fibbing... !

I think that there are enough fictional dystopias for no-one to have the patent on the idea.

Interestingly enough I could not find any synonyms for 'dystopia' and it was coined by JS Mill about 250 or 300 years after Thomas More coined 'utopia' which has loads of synonyms... interesting, huh?

B


Almost ready for Peer Review

Post 16

Mund

Not important for this article, but a half-related topic...

I find a researcher called Silverygibbon (http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/U180257) and take a look at his entries. I'm attracted by the "Latin" name of the real creature, the silvery gibbon (hylobates moloch). Moloch? This reminds me of more than one thing, and taking one of the paths brings me to discussion of H.G.Wells' Time Machine.

Here are the Morlocks, hidden away in the dark - slimy underground creatures with huge eyes, who we learn, feed off the merry carefree Eloi. And the name of these creatures is derived, perhaps, as follows:

"mullock" (garbage, low-class human trash), "warlock" (evil spirit, male witch), "Moloch" (god of Ammonites to whom children were sacrificed, viewed as a devil by Christianity, "Mohock" (an eighteenth-century London ruffian)...

Maybe my linking of gibbons and Morlocks is unjustified, but I wonder why somebody chose moloch as the name of this poor ape. A devil, to whom children were sacrificed?


Key: Complain about this post