h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

...does not work. I see parents trying to explain to an out-of-control child why whatever mischief they are participating in is not good, or polite, or nice, or whatever, and they child nods their head, sniffles pitifully, and then continues to engage in the behavior. Can we all agree here most children do not understand rational, common sense, adult thinking? Telling a child that they should not pull the kitty's tail because it hurts the kitty does not work. One good claw to the face, however, does.

Parents should understand they're not supposed to be their child's buddy. They're here to be a parent, a role model, and a teacher.

I think it does work. Not in the middle of a tantrum of course, but I'd rather ask my child how he would feel f someone was doing it to him than risk him losing his eyesight or being scarred for life by an animal!

I am specifically speaking of children having tantrums since the subject is child disipline. After all, one is not disciplined when one is behaving. As for a cat scratch...I'm not talking about being mauled by a lion. Your children may behave beautifully after you've patiently explained cause-and-effect consequences of bad behavior, but many do not. Why? Because they are coddled and taught that their self-esteem and self-respect come before common courtesy. Direct negative experiences serve as the teacher, not a long lecture or a "time-out".

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it is possible to reason with a child, i do it with mine on a daily basis. when he starts to get mad about something i won't let him do, the first thing i do is think about how important the issue is to me. if we're coloring and he wants to color the dog purple, it's not worth getting into a fight over. if it's dinner time and he wants to go play and i want him to go wash up, he is going to go wash up. it's okay to give in to your children occasionally, it lets them know that they have important ideas as well.

when my son gets mad at me, i calmly explain to him why it has to be my way. for the sake of argument and lack of confusion, we'll use bedtime. no child ever wants to go to bed when you want it to, it's a universal rule. my son will collapse in the floor and start crying and whining (not always, but this is typical). i explain to him that it is time for bed, because we've had all evening to play and watch tv, and we have to get up very early in the morning to go to work and school. if this does not get through to him, i tell him to go sit in time out for a few minutes while he calms down, then we will talk about it. in a few minutes i go to him, sit next to him and we talk. it is not a lecture, it is a two way discussion. i explain to him why what i want (for him to go to bed) is so important to me (so i can go to bed, too), and ask him if he thinks it should be different, or why he wants to stay up. he'll say, for instance that he's not done playing. and i can tell him that after he gets home from school tomorrow he will have plenty of time to play some more.

i will also distract his attention from the issue at hand by mentioning an upcoming event, like the field trip on friday, and bring that around to reinforce why he needs to go to bed now: get lots of sleep so we can do good in school tomorrow and the rest of the week so we can go on the field trip. children can understand these concepts if you 'pick your fights and choose your battlefields' so to speak, break the information down into his language.

i would also like to mention that my son is 5. i have always dealt with him in this way. and as a result he is a very bright, mature five-year-old. he has an unmatched vocabulary in his class, is incredibly articulate, and oftentimes when he gets into trouble (at school or at home), you need only call his name and he will come to you and say, 'i know i'm in trouble, i did (insert bad thing here) and i'm going to be in trouble for doing it. i'll just go put myself in time-out.' (his school principle was called to his classroom the first week of school because he did something bad and got into trouble and placed himself in time-out - out in the hallway and wouldn't come into class until his timeout was up. truth!)

i let my son know that his feelings are important too, and sometimes his ideas will win, and sometimes mine will. he understands this, and we have a great relationship. he gets lots of hugs, lots of kisses, we have lots of tickle fights, but sometimes he gets his hand smacked, occasionally he gets paddled. i would guess on average i've spanked him less than once a month, maybe even less than once every three months, since he was old enough to toddle and get into trouble. but as a result he knows that if he gets a spanking that i'm serious, and there is an important reason he is being disciplined this way (usually being a danger to himself or someone else on a repeated basis).

sorry to have rattled on for so long, but, well, sorry i rattled on so long

reasoning works, so does spanking, if neither method is abused.

Reasoning with a child is somewhat of an oxymoron, because it implies that a child can reason. These mobile boxes of noise depending on the age are no more capable of reason than a rock. That doesn't mean that they are stupid, they just have not been taught that particular suject yet. A child really is not capable of reason, or begin to reason until about the age of five. So as far as reason goes it is pretty ineffective as a dicipline tool.

Reasoning with a child is like trying to make tea using a chocolate teapot.

Hmmmm... I'm curious who the parents are here
Reasoning with *anyone* of any age when they are tossing a hissy fit is impossible... a good example is "road rage."
Its crucial to get the individual (child or adult) to calm down, preferably in a neutral place, where reason can be called upon to prevail. Children are capable of reason.. they are great practioners of cause and effect... depending on their age they do have trouble with long term consequnces because their sense of time is not fully developed, and complex consequences is straight out the window.
Young children do typically operate on stimulus-response... in other words... if a tantrum gets them what they want they will employ that strategy. If it doesn't they will give up on it. Its important to remember that giving in ONCE to a tantrum is the greatest reinforcer... witness the slot machine paradigm in adults... a random reward does not extinguish behavior it reinforces it.. therefor consistancy is key.
Hitting teaches children that hitting is ok as an option to solve a problem, not to mention it escalates the emotional level in a situation and prevents any discussion, engendering feelings of anger and resentment. Similarly, screaming at them like a raving loone.. I'm always amused at the parents screaming at the screaming kids.. no one is in control in that situation. Certainly, no one is setting a good example.
Have i ever hit my child? Absolutely not. I don't want her hitting anyone, so why would I engage in bahvior I find unacceptable?
I did however, pick her up bodily when she was kicking and screaming and calmly carry her out of the children's museum when she threw her self on the floor rather than leave calmly. I brought her to the car (neutral ground) and let her get control of herself. It took her five minutes (hint: tantrums are boring if ignored). Did people stare? Yup. Was I embarassed. Nope. Did she ever have another tantrum? No way. She learned that tantrums were not an option, nor were they any fun. She also has learned that unless a request is preceeded withthe word "Please" or "May I" its ignored. I get told all the time how "lucky" I am to have such a well behaved child.. luck had nothing to do with it. Neither did screaming, or hitting. But consistent, gentle discipline did.

This isn't the first time I've had this conversation, and it isn't the first time some parents make a mistake and jump to conclusions. Child discipline does not automatically mean screaming and hitting. I'm not talking about beating a child senseless. I'm talking about not relying on adult reasoning when dealing with a misbehaving child. Following through--on promises and threats--is very important. So is culitvating loving respect. It's great that the parents in this forum apparently have established boundaries. However, many do not and rely on one extreme or the other when dealing with a tantrum.

Sometimes reasoning can turn into arguing. When I realise it has, I tell my kid I'm not arguing with him, I've made my decision, and that tends to work too.
To the people that say you can't reason with a child, just try it. Not just once, but every time. It does work, maybe I have to lower myself to think like a child, but it will work! There are people here who do it regularly!!

reasoning with a child not only works, but it is vital. but if you haven't done it in the past don't expect it to work immediately. if your child isn't used to discussing behavior problems with you it will take him a while to get used to the idea.

but reasoning with a child accomplishes a number of important issues. first of all, it teaches the child to think about cause and effect. not only will they observe the results of their actions, but you will enforce those results by discussing them. they will also be learning that their voice is important and their ideas are valid. even if their ideas are wrong, it will mean a lot to a child to know that you are listening to what they have to say and responding to their needs. you should also make suggestions to your child when you are discussing something they have done wrong. let them know that it is okay, even natural to be angry, but suggest alternate ways of venting anger.

Beautifully put St. Broelan.
Teaching children to "think", teaching them to master self-control, teaching them to "reason"... not to mention teaching self-respect and respect for others. All are long term committments but so worth the tremendous effort.. imagine the world if all adults were raised this way!
Slapping is easy, so is yelling. These teach that (1) I'm bigger than you and I'm the authority figure here so I can do this i.e. being a bully is ok; (2) its ok to slap someone (even just a "little") when you are mad at them or displeased with their behavior i.e. hitting is a viable option for expressing one's emotions; (3) self control is not always neccessary because as soon as you place your hands on someone else in anger you are no longer fully in control of yourself or the situation. Its important to remember that invariably adults who "hit" to whatever degree were hit as children, whether its other adults, or their own children, because children model the beavior they experience. Also, do we want to raise individuals to be good people because they choose to be, or out of fear? The difference might be subtle, but I think its important to consider.

when you spank a child it is not because of anger. It is in order to teach them a lesson.

that depends largely on your mindset at the time of the spanking and what the child has done to merit punishment.

that was my point. a spanking is only a spanking if it is not done out of anger. spanking out of anger is the same as abuse.

I'm off to bed. I support what you say 100%. Hopeto http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F66254?thread=110516see you in the

So right, children are not capable of bringing to bear an adult level of reasoning ability and judgement and need to be patiently coached and drilled if they're to learn. Making a game of it helps.

I'm a single parent of 4 children and have been for the past 5 plus years since splitting with my partner, father of my children, who also lives almost 100 miles away from where I now live.

I have always found that mid tantrum the effort is put more into calming the child down than going through the issues. I've physically removed my son, in particular, from the room and put him into his own room where he has been told that when he has calmed down I will come up and speak to him about whatever his hissy fit was about and then I have simply refused to get into any sort of debate until he is, indeed, calm.

In my experience children have a much more clear set of black and white rules about morals, certainly from when they start school, so a lot of things they have problems with are because they truly believe they are right and can't see all the grey areas in between.

Then there's the "I want it and I want it now" mood that children (and some adults) have which I deal with by steadfastly refusing to give in to.

The first time I vetoed a visit to the cinema because my kids wouldn't behave while shopping in town earlier in the day, I had a lot of "That's not fair" and "You're horrible" comments to put up with but they certainly remembered it on future shopping trips or when some other activity for them had been planned.

Children do have to see their parent as an authority figure and not as a friend, I've had problems with my kids not listening to me at times because I'm so silly in nature that a lot of our time is spent having fits of giggles so it's then quite hard to snap from that to being Mrs Assertive Parent.

I really think this whole matter is one best left to individual parents themselves to decide on, assuming this means that if a parent chooses to smack that it will be within reason and not a hiding.

Reasoning is the only way to bring up future citizens. Sometimes a child has to restrained, which can develop into a hug or cuddle, and sometimes a child has to be allowed to express its disapointment or anger.

Discipline is a key issue - threats must be carried through - but at the same time can't be used to bully a child into agreement.