h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I just wanted to express a little bit about my "fairly universal bigotry among American citizens against socialism."

The greatest evil in the world is communism. People are inherently greedy and selfish. It's a recklessly dangerous fact to ignore. Any political system that ignores this is doomed to failure. Communism gives ultimate power to a few, who are free to oppress the masses however they choose. On an individual level, workers have no incentive to perform, because they're going to get only what they are going to get, nothing more nothing less. The system will lead to a poor performing economy and oppressed citizens.

What has made us successful in the United States is that our economy and government are structured to balance individuals' desire for power and their greed with the understanding that it's best to pursue them lawfully. Virtually everyone has a shot at getting to the where they want to go. We all know the rules, and anyone with the motivation and desire can get whatever they want.

What makes communism evil is that those who advocate it, even though they have the best intentions, are trying to lead people down a path to oppression and destitution. Personally, I wouldn't care if we executed every socialist in the nation, but we live in a nation of laws. I know that the best way to get what I want (a national government with libertarian ideals) is to work with the system.

I agree that, as a system of government, Communism was a failure and a horror in the USSR. It caused terrible damage also to the cultural heritage of China (not to mention offing a mind-bogglingly large number of people). However, the American fear of Communism has put us uncomfortably close to some "fascist regimes" (in quotes cos it's SUCH a bromide). Necessity may make for strange bedfellows, but one ought to hate onself in the morning a lot more than the US did, for allowing Pinochet to take control of Chile.

I say this pro forma, without any intention of attempting to change your mind; your view on Communism is the same as that of a majority of Americans.

When I first left the US, at the age of 19, I travelled to Aberdeen, among other places. I was on the wharf with my hostess and we were looking at a very large ship tied up there when my eye happened to go up to the smokestack. There I saw a hammer and sickle. The ship was the Murmansk, as the crew up at the stern grinned and called to us, and she was carrying timber. My hostess was at first surprised then amused at the strength of my reaction to the political affiliation of the merchant ship; to her it was just another foreign country.

And that got me thinking... probably ruined me, to hear my conservative parents when they saw the pictures. My years in Europe un-demonized Communism, but that didn't make me a Communist. I found, via my Labour-voting Brit husband, that socialism wasn't just the agressive hyper-nationalist menace to the east but could embrace certain other ideas as well.

Your thinking is that of the freeman who will not willingly cede anything to the State. That is, you started from freedom and won't trade down because you are too suspicious of the State. I may be wrong about this, but the European experience seems to come from the other direction, starting from oppression and weeding out those powers of the State which have proved to be pernicious. Their experience of fascism is still quite fresh.

Excellent thought-provoking posting people. I will gather my thoughts and return... with a South Pacific view

When I first read your response Lil, I tried to think of a response, but after reading what I wrote, I don't really have one. I pretty much stated my view, and I can't really think of much to add.

It seems to me that we in America have always been oppoesed to socialism. We even sent the 27th Infantry Regiment to Russia to fight the communists during the revolution. Socialism runs counter to everything that this country is supposed to be about.

Of course, I'm a rapidily disappearing minority. I beilieve in the United States as a constitutional republic where people have liberties rather than entitlements. Where the constitution is actually read, and the law means something.

I expect that we'll continue our slide towards democracy, fewer liberties, and socialism. As the world slowly unifies into one bland nation without political, economic, cultural distinction or success.

I recall a late night comedian say that we could still win the Vietnam War by opening a McDonalds in Hanoi and declaring a vicotry for capitalism. There's some truth to that, but I think we're also becoming more socialist in this nation.

In 100 years, which ideology will be prevelant?

Tribalism. It will come out of Africa - again

Communism isn't evil, it is evil dressed as communism that is evil. That is what happened in Russia. You are right that people are inherently greedy and it is an instinct in society that you can't delete and so Communism has no way of functioning properly. What is worse than a world full of egoists? A world full of altruists. You've got to get the right balance so that no-one is opressed and no-one is a dictator, yet still keep some sort af social ladder. It's very hard to do but makes more sense and is easier than making everyone equal even when they are not.

I think we've approached that in the United States. We became the richest nation on Earth, because our interests are balanced and our power is ditributed.

I think we are sliding away from liberty and towards socialism, but we've done alright. It's about time for another nation to take the next steop towards a libertarian state. It's too late for us.

I think that 2b was a little harsh. I know he didn't really mean that he physically wanted to kill every Socialist.

I hope that Americans are at least true to their word and respect the Russians as free democratic people and that if Russia manages to rebuild itself that they do not recycle these harsh phrases.

I didn't mean that we should kill them, I just said that in the abstract, it wouldn't bother me. I have occasional bouts of sympathy, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Besides, this is a nation of laws that respects the right of people to have differing, and even dangerous, opinions.

Russia worries me. They seem to be having a hard time working out issues. On the other hand, thy're not doing too bad considering where they've come from. If you switch from a society where independent thought is not welcome, leaders are used to corruption and absolute power, and switch to a free society virtually over night you'll have problems.

It's like taking a 8 year old and telling him he has to be a responsible adult, not in ten years, but tomorrow. They're going through growing pains. It'll take a while for their leaders to remeber that you just can't sieze radio stations for saying something that you don't like. It'll take them a while to learn how to be corrupt without being ugly about it. It takes time.

Let me suggest an analogy. In the 50's, President Truman integrated the military. It wasn'a popular move. Even some minorities were against it. It took a generation of soldiers to learn new ways of thinking. They were taguht in basic training and leadership schools that we were an integrated service, every one was equal, we all bleed green. Now, I think the idea of jan integrated service is accepted. Even when the rest of the nation has racial problems, the military has given all of its members a fair deal.

It just takes a while for the old dogs to retire. I guess when it comes down to it, the Russians are doing pretty good.

Russia isn't doing very well. There very few good changes and most infrastructure has gotten worse. A rough analogy would be to say they chopped up their bridges so that a few of them could sail to the west. The average Russian has seen no benefit. In fact from what I have seen the only thing to change is that they have lost all pride and most of their jobs.

Putin is probably the best thing that to happened lately, they have had a long run of sloppy leaders. Very few in Russia had any respect for Gorbachov, and Yeltsin sold everything for a dime. I don't mean public services to private sector, rather heavy industry plants, boats, gas, oil etc. There has been virtually no re-investment in Russia since the 1990. So far all that Putin has managed to do is to halt the tide. It will be a long time till things start to flow back in the right direction. I also think it is wrong to assume that living in Communism rots the brain. It takes a lot of ingenuity to survive. But right now there is nothing that they can do about it as individuals.

Russia didn't have communism, they had a dictatorship in the name of communism, and really didn't give it a proper chance. But there is no such practical thing a proper communism.

It is my contention that any attempt to have a communist state will inevitably lead to a dictatorship.

I agree, as you can't get rid of the animal instict of possession and territoriality.

I am not sure but I think Marx supported an anarchy rather than a dictator. "Noam Chomsky" is a big supporter of that but I have to say I don't think he has thought it through very well. Even Stalin & Lenin were not officially party leaders (albiet evil Dictators). I think their ranks were Party Secretary. Stalin always rigged the elections (this can be done in any government and if it is succesful then you don't not know it is happening).

But Socialism is different from Communism. Socialists are democratically elected and can be "un" elected in four years time if you don't like them. Where as communists have the idea that they should not be replaced, but you can vote for the leader.

Capitalism has it's own dictators, take Singapore for example. There is compulsory voting and yet they have had the same party in government since Britain left in the ? 50's they even had the same leader for about 35 years until he became too old to run the show.

I think what I am saying is that Communism was not supposed to be a dictatorship and that Facism can be part of any government if they leverage properganda, even if the ideology doesn't support it.

Have you read Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" (one of many good books). She is originally from Russia but fled Communism. She has some quite strong views suggesting that there is no such thing as Altruism and communism cannot work. It is quite interesting but rather one sided. She believes that all people cannot do something purely for the good of another person, even if you risk your life to save a loved one it is because you are too selfish to survive without them.
PG

I think that fascism is a distinct political and economic system, just as communism is.

Fascism, as I understand it, is a society where the means of production are owned by private citizens, even though they are effectively governed by the government. In Communism, the state owns and runs the means of production.

I haven't read anything by Ayn Rand. I've heard that her political ideas are similar to mine, but her books weren't written very well. I've read that her movement assumed almost cult like qualities, similar to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. That may just be her detractors speaking.

I do think that altruism can exist, and that society can operate without rules, but only on a very small scale. Small groups can interact and share. Informal social sanctions can maintain the society. Once a groups grows so large that all the members no longer know all the other members, formal rules are required.

Fair point I think facism generally refers to the German Govt during WWII. And I also have little time for ill thought out L Ron Hubbard types. Are those formal rules you mentioned the Communist Manifesto or Socialist doctarine? I should have changed facism to Dictatorship because it is also wrong to refer to Singapore as a facist state. Lee Kwan Yuew would find me and have me shot for saying that .

I suspect that International cults will be the most dangerous threat to countries like the US and that educating people is the only way to control this type of threat. I am not sure if it is the same in the US but in the UK Scientologists have adverts on the subway and they have a showroom (temple) in the center of Oxford Street (big shopping district)!

I think I have started repeating myself.

Germany wasn't the only fascist country. It's allies were as well. If I recall properly, I think Italy was fascist before Germany was. It was a political movement that was competing with communism in the early half of the 20th Century.

Personally, I think their so similar that it's kind of splitting hairs. The only people to whom this makes much of a difference is the industrialists who can retain wealth when a country becomes fascist rather than loosing everything to the communists.

Funny you should mention that but Hitler himself was involved in the Communist Party in Germany after WWI and used it as a launch pad for his political career.

I am not sure that I could agree that Communism is Fascism. Stalin & Mao Communism might have been similar to Fascism but the Trotsky Mensheviks might have been very different (impossible to guess).

While sun shines every one likes to be an entrepreneur but when the skies are grey every one wants their fair share.

Hiya Two-Bit,

in response to your original post...

>The greatest evil in the world is communism. People are inherently greedy and selfish. It's a recklessly dangerous fact to ignore.

The most fundamental point that i disagree with you on is the inherent selfishness of humanity. I believe that we are social animals whose successful evolution was centered on our ability to communicate and co-operate as much as compete.

>What has made us successful in the United States is that our economy and government are structured to balance individuals' desire for power and their greed with the understanding that it's best to pursue them lawfully.

Again, I disagree. I think that the States is so successful because they have shown the most disregard for international law, because they didn't suffer as severe economic damage in WW2 as Europe, and cos they have the biggest guns. And i would suggest to you that the majority of power in the states is in the hands of the powerful men atop the military/industrial heirachy who also happen to be the government. (A govm't that won an election characterised by recounts, irregularites and a clan of corrupt officials doing favours for the Bush clan.) And precisely how law-abiding is the US - hows your crime rate these days?

>Virtually everyone has a shot at getting to the where they want to go. We all know the rules, and anyone with the motivation and desire can get whatever they want.

I'm more with you here, I too value a meritocratic society. But do you really think a child born into inner city povery has as much chance of being president as, say, George Bush?

>What makes communism evil is that those who advocate it, even though they have the best intentions, are trying to lead people down a path to oppression and destitution.

If as you say, they have the best intentions why would they TRY to lead people to opression and destitution. The point I'd make here is that communism remains an unworkable idea that has never really been done in practice. The notion of 'sharing' is, as you say later, fine in small groups but fails in larger societies. I wonder if that is a result of power becoming concentrated in too few hands? (As you may have guessed i'm very suspicious of heirachy and beuracracy)

>Personally, I wouldn't care if we executed every socialist in the nation, but we live in a nation of laws.

You don't mean that really, do you sweetie? Doesn't your own concsience and circumstance affect your behaviour more that written laws do?

>I know that the best way to get what I want (a national government with libertarian ideals) is to work with the system.

Cool. Me too (ish) But I'd like an international goverment with libertarian ideals, direct democracy and a minimal social safety net to meet the basic needs - health, education, access to clean water and suchlike - for everyone in the world.

I really don't see any 19th century political philosophy that fits the bill for me...

purplejenny