h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

My daughter is studying biology for her final secondary school exams, known as the Leaving Certificate. (It's not as detailed as an A-level, but a higher level than an O-level).

She was telling about the immune system of the cell, which involves monocytes, lymphocytes and lots of other things I'd never heard of before. The system is crazy, with various things detecting intruders, but not attacking them, just standing beside them, other things detecting the standers and marking them, still more bits to actually attack the intruders and so on. She couldn't understand why such an inefficient and counter-intuitive system is needed.

I had to explain to her that it works, so it is perpetuated. And then it struck me. This is a classic example of evidence against intelligent design. No right-minded creator would have devised such a crazy system.

Heath-Robinson is God?

It's just as difficult to argue against ID as it is to argue for it. Who's to say what is crazy? We don't fully understand the immune system. One day we may.

I have to agree with Icy, I suppose (not that I hesitate to).

As you stated, Gnomon, it works. Therefore, other evolutionary attempts at immune systems must have died out as even less efficient, more crazy, or ineffective.

It may be that this is precisely the level of complexity required for the host to protect itself against intruders, yet not protect itself against harmless or helpful critters. And, therefore, would be the result of Intelligent Design as well.

I'm a firm believer in Evolutionary theory, but I don't see where a presupposed supreme being couldn't use that as a tool-of-choice, if one existed and decided to build up their 'sandbox and collection of pets' one advance at a time.

So any evidence of evolution would be a sign that the intelligent designer decided to include that evidence in his design?

Dear Gnoman,

Goodness me!. You are having a field day with interesting topicsl ~~!!

As someone whose aut0 immune system - what the devil is it anyway!! - has been rendered US by being too long on a particular drug for High blood Pressure - I am fascinated that your young daughter is being taught about something which I, who qualified as a radiogrpaher back in the dark ages, knew nothing about.

It is good they are studying it. It means that eventually someone may be able to understand what is happens when it goes awry.

I wish I could convince my ~AIS that it is NOT my unfortunate skin that is the enemy. so there is absolutely no need to turn me various shades of the rainbow, and try and destroy it by making it peel and peel, just because some unfortunate doctor kept me on a type of medication for too long.

However, always an optimist, I am trying all sorts of Heath Robinson remedies to try and bring my AIS to it's senses, and to convince it just to let me be, and let me get on with my life, which in any case is far too short to finish all I want to do.

So do give your daughter my best wishes. I long for the day when her generation will be able to delve into the intricacies of the Auto immune systems and will avoid confusing it with our modern medication.

Perhaps we are all supposed to have High blood Pressure!!. Perhaps that is what keeps us ticking as long as we do not smoke or drink to excess which definitely does not go with HBP!!

Sincerely,

Christiane.
AR9-

Yep!

Although it is so anthropomorphic to think that a god, nature, or evolution would think like a human being. Instead, we have to try to 'think like them' and understand where we are right and where we are still unsure.

A few days ago, I shared the back of the bus to w*rk with some immigrant teenage boys who were having a heated discussion about religion (all of them having a Muslim background). I was biting my tongue trying not to advise them to ever discuss religion with someone you consider to be your friend, but decided to listen instead.

Two of them were atheists (or heathens *shrugs*) and one of their arguments was 'what if this CERN thing shows that the earth *was* created as a result of the Big Bang and not by Allah?'

Where upon one of the Muslims replied 'and how do you know it wasn't Allah that created the Big Bang to begin with?!'

It really is quite tricky to argue with the ID people...

True, true. As long as we don't know what caused the Big Bang, it doesn't matter if everything was largely clockworks after that. It can always be surmised or argued that the Big Bang was created to precisely get us this far, by this time.

There's a big difference between "God created the universe via the big bang and the natural laws." and intelligent design.

ID can be debated in a scientific manner, or at least claims made by ID enthusiasts can often be debunked in a scientific manner and the science they claim supports their view can likewise often be demonstrated to be very bad science indeed.

However the existence or non existence of God cannot be debated scientifically as it can be neither proven nor disproven which is why it is a matter of belief and not knowledge and therefor the realm of philosophers and theologians, not scientists.

One of the (many) interesting bits of the mamammalien immune system is examining its evolution.
The earliest hints are to be found in current-day forms in plants, and somewhat more advanced still in birds, and also certain vertibrates.
Interstingly some fo the earlier evolutionary speaking bits of the immune system, were really first involved in combating badly behaving cells of the hosts body; Probably had a major role (and probably still do) in preventing unchecked cell division,(cancer efectively), as well as division and continueation of cells which have some peculiar mutation that is detrimental to the host.
In humans, I guess (and other mammels) things like the compliment proteins (C1Q, etc), as well as some of the cytokines, probably fall into this catogry; and to an extent I guess cell-surface expresion of CD8, and then development of CD8+ T-lymphocytes just provided a more efecient way of clearing out dead and knackered cells of our own...
All the relaly* complicated type stuff with co-receptors, helper CD4+T lymphocytes, the various stages of cell development (with built in check points and such like), Plus multiple pathways biochemically to get to the same endpoint, with cross-talking biochemical messengers and such like, just helps ensure it is only* those cells we don't want, and other thigns like toxins, that get attacked... Until of course it all goes wrong and we end up with Diabetes melitus, myasthina gravis, systemic lupus, rhymatoid arthritis, or multiple sclerosis- the autoimmune diseases, where often one, or only a few very little bits of the overall immune system fail to work as they oughta and the rnd result is often really rahter bad
No, don't look at me like that.... this is* interesting... well I thought it was but I did spend far too long studying it at Uni
But it is all logical... they're is at least of those bits I studied in great depth, a logic to how it came to be as it is, how it utilised pre-existing biochemical processes where availible, or adapted from some other system/process wihin the cell

Dear 2 legs,

It is early in the morning, but all you say makes such sense. Please may I put you down as a friend so that perhaps this wretched idea that an auto immune system can "attack" something which is vital to it's survival can be investigated.

I hope you agree. It is the first time that I have read anything hopeful about this wretched "illness" which one cannot seem to halt.

Perhaps it is not an "illness" but another way of growing old and eventually succumbing, rather painfully (and itching furiously!) to our common destiny.

Thank you so much for your meaningful insights into what is not only causing me a great deal of distress, but also seems to be so totally ignored by the medical profession.

The only reply I ever get is
Allergic reaction ad nauseum.

Kind regards

Christiane
AlsoRan80

2legs;

I also sounds like and idea for an excellent EG entry. Has it been done?

And, good luck to you, AR80!!

Thank you so much FT

I really do think that this is the next big break through which has to be made.

Having survived two very serious ops -
1 Thorocotomy in 1980 - large tumour and my left lower lobe removed (May be viewed in the Medical lab at the Groote Schuur Hospital Museum. The tunour was NOT Ca)

2 Aneurysm in my left coronary artery in 1994. When questioned aftet the op. the cardiac surgeon tentatively suggested an extra ten years had been gained. This seems to have been extended by quite a few years already.!! I think I am so lucky to have been so blessed, and would be interested to know why I was so incredibly fortunate.

Now I think that I am perfect material to investigate why and how. Sadly thee are not many researchers around who are prepared to set their thinking caps on. Unfortunately I trained as a sociologist of Law and although I was a radiographer when I was young, it was literally in the dark ages before all the wonderful new techniques were developed.

However I am still a researcher at heart anhd would like nothing better then to be able to throw some light on this extraordinary phenomenon

Auto Imnune Disorder,

Sincerely,

Also Ran80

It would also be interesting to think that this research of yours could be a very good reason for your still blessing us with your presence!

I've researched a few medical problems (my list is on my PS), but this one would not be a subject where I would have much insight. I'd mostly be regurgitating available info.

Get To It!

Dan Dennett says something on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTepA-WV_oE about Intelligent Design. The clip is over 25 minutes long, but good stuff.

Anyway, exactly ten minutes in, he qoutes Orgel's Second Rule: "Evolution is cleverer than you are."

Then he says "If you understand Orgel's second rule then you understand why the Intelligent Design movement is basically a hoax."

Natural Selection is utterly mindless, but it comes up with solutions we could never dream of. The Heath Robinson (no relation to me, Andrew Robinson, alas) nature of the solutions is indeed, as Gnomon says, disproof of ID.

(There is another amazing fact quoted 11 minutes 40 seconds in to the clip.)

Dear recumbenman,
As someone whose intelligent design has gone vry awry, I wonder if I should read or rather listen to this.

anyway, there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying to make the most of the last of what I was born with. and it is exciting and passable. !! I think!

Regards
Christiane
A;spRan80

Off to listen to Dan Dennett


Lovely to see you R'man

to Christiane & Fb

Dear Recumbentman,

I am waving back furiously but it does not help me to understand all those quotes!!

What shall I do?

Christiane.