h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I was going to post this in the "swearing" thread. But it's not rally right there.

so...
I actually find my self totally non-interested in what happens to the site given what I've seen over recent weeks and am not sure if I want to carry on anyway.

Treating researchers as infants isn't a way to keep me, but one out of however many doesn't bother TPTB and I have better, more relaxed, ways of keeping in touch with my friends.

just had a post pulled for quoting the first 3 paragraphs of a torygraph article I linked to. Copyright issues.

Actually I'm not sure if 3 paras is too much or too little, actually I care very little either way although it might have lead to a good discussion. But I can't care now. I'll stick to email and facebook in future.

Sad to see you go but I've been feeling the same for years, h2 is SOOOOOOOOOOOO behind in technology, where is the ability to post photo's, Direct Message and so forth, I only log in to talk to friends now

It is really hard right now. The way some people are acting, I'm really not interested. I hate the idea of volunteer moderators on this site. I know it works on other sites, but I guess they've had mods already when I've joined.

I hate the idea of people who I share the site with having that sort of power over others.

Sorry Sho, how did the consortium or anyone else related to noohootoo treat you as infants, please explain. If it was the BBC who did it (and all moderation done at the moment is the decision of the BBC and of nobody else) then I see no reason for you to leave because the BBC will soon have nothing to do with h2g2 anymore.

they're not doing it now, but from what I'm reading around the place (and I'm prepared to admit that it's only my impressin and not actually "real") but I had hoped we'd be getting away from some of the more restrictive BBC stuff, (I don't care about swearing, I don't mind if there is a profanity filter)

But some of the other threads are very revealing - the one about youtube links. We have to mind out not to post videos because some people have slow broadband... and we should know who got out of bed on the wrong side (yes an exaggeration, but I don't want to have to see some kind of bad behaviour and then check up on someone and think "ah yes, forgot to take their tablets today" or something which is kind of what some are suggesting)

so anyway
I guess I'm just fed up with the way the site is going. I'll check in but I'm much much much less inclined to join in when I see some of the behaviours which are being tolerated.

I'm sorry it's making you feel like that. There've always been the debates about how h2g2 *should* be, of course. Now the thing that bites is that there's the chance for people to join in and make it happen.

If you don't like what you see, and if youv'e got the time, join in and say so. Even better, join in and volunteer to make things happen the way you want them to. Of course, most people (me included at the moment) don't have the time.

I think part of the problem is there are too many hypothetical discussions going on. I'd prefer it if we'd pulled together a concrete proposal for (minimal) changes to the HR and Ts and Cs, and put it up for discussion. Much easier than these entirely hypothetical things. I've simply not got the time to do that right now, and no-one else seems to have the inclination.

For what it's worth, and despite appearances to the contrary, the principles we are working to are

1) only change what we absolutely have to in the short term
2) the golden rules are "trust people to use their common sense", and "accept there'll be the odd mistake as a result"
3) if it ain't broke, don't fix it
4) not only but also - ie add new things rather than throwing out old things

There is, to my way of thinking, far too much hypothetical discussion on topics like moderation - we've been talking about it since 25th January 2001 for heavens' sake! It's a well rehearsed subject. We should be putting up concrete proposals and saying "where is this right, where is this wrong".

*sigh*

I am really sorry it's so dispiriting, Sho. It's getting on my nerves too, tbh.

Ben

Bear in mind that this is just how the site is going *now*, the Consortium cannot do anything about it... we're just zese guys, you know? It's all in the hands of the BBC and the (outsourced, offsite) Mods... and a lot of the bad behaviours are, as far as I can tell, only being "tolerated" because people are moaning about it rather than just hitting the Yikes button.

We *want* to get away from some of the more restrictive BBC stuff, because we don't like it either. And really, what's happening *now* is not an indication of what the new site will be like... Reefgirl mentioned the tech we've got, we *know* it's outdated but right now we can't do anything about it, only discuss what we'd like to do after the Foop.

AS for moderation: what would you rather have? It being outsourced to another company which not only removes any knowledge of context but takes money *away* from other areas of the site it could have been spent on? Or onsite volunteers who know people and can actaully deal with those who are being nasty and mean spirited whilst ostensibly staying within the House Rules? It's not about power, it's about keeping everything where everyone can see it and being as transparent as possible (without leaving the volunteers open to abuse). I seriously doubt any volunteer moderator who goes on a power trip will be allowed to keep their position.

The YouTube thing is silly, because the videos are not being embedded and nobody is forcing anyone to click on the links. As with a lot of things right now, it's just a few people kicking up a fuss and blowing it way out of proportion.

Regarding people who have "got out of the wrong side of the bed": if they break the House Rules and are yikes'd, they should be dealt with. Simples. The important bit there being "and are yikes'd", even when we have volunteer mods they won't be around all the time and won't be psychic, people will still have to let them know there's an issue rather than just expecting it to be dealt with.

Oh Ben. I do sound like an ungrateful brat and I'm sorry about that

I think that what has happened with the sale of the site, and who it has gone to, should go down in internet history as a Very Good Thing.

Right now I am very stressed IRL and seeing things around h2g2 that I just don't like (in the way of some behaviours being tolerated that really should be called every time)

Probably the best thing is for me just to stay away, and get on with what I should be doing and keep my (mostly probably unjustified) griping offsite.

I would dearly love to volunteer. As I've mentioned elsewhere for many years I was a moderator on a massive message board for a sci-fi show and during that time we had 2 massive fan wars that make some of the things that happen here look like a slap with a damp string.

However, my job eats most of my time and I finally got off my backside and started my OU course so I could volunteer and do a pretty slipshod, half-hearted thing. Or I could do what I should do and watch and encourage where I can from the sidelines and keep my beak shut.

I'm perfectly sure that after the move I'll find it all fabby and marvy again.

I do recognise that "too much to do, not enough time to do it" thang. (And while I'm here I should thank you for your "kids gotta eat" post ages ago about working somewhere that eats your soul, it's got me into work on several occasions in the past 12 months.)

The moderation here right now sucks great big hairy monkey slime-balls.

Realistically, whether it's fabby and marvy in 3 months time is anyone's guess of course. It won't be for lack of trying... and at least we'll have the power and the right to change direction quickly if something isn't working.

B

I have a card stuck to my monitor at work with KGTE on it in large friendly letters. I never tell anyone what it means outside of "it's my motivational motto"

Glad it helped - it keeeps me going back and going back.

I think what comes next for h2g2 could be really good - and frankly if it attracts different users in large numbers, who's going to complain? Even if it loses a few disgruntled people on the way? Things have to change and evolve to keep interesting and current. It's always been the way.

I'd have to argue with this:

"For what it's worth, and despite appearances to the contrary, the principles we are working to are
1) only change what we absolutely have to in the short term"


F21551820?thread=8257675
Community Volunteers - what's in a name?
Post: 1
Posted 5 Days Ago by Online NowVip
The moderators have a bit of a bad rap at the moment. So we'd quite like to given them a new name for after the move.

So you may be working to those principles, but there are others who don't seem to sticking to them.

I think the logic was that we're having to change to volunteer moderators (because we have to for financial reasons), so there is going to be a change we have to make. Should we acknowledge that change or brush it under the carpet.

Anyway I'm glad people didn't want to call them something else.


I'm also sad that this is making Sho sad..

I'm sorry it's making Sho sad. I'll be happier too when we have control of the site and can stop talking about it and actually do things.

As one of the four Editors in charge of the Edited Guide, when we get it, I'll be working towards keeping things as similar as possible at the start. But bear in mind that the site has not thrived in the 10 years that the BBC had it. It ambled along and was a nice place where we could all chat, but it didn't explode onto the net and become the definitive Guide, the way we hoped. We'll have to think of some way to change that.

Sho, while it may seem extreme to pull a post for containing three paragraphs of copyright text, it wouldn't be legal to post it on Facebook either.

I'm not so miffed about the pulled post* although i can't believe that three (referenced) paragraphs infringes copyright I'm happy for greater legal minds than mine to decide that.

all round

don't worry about me feeling sad. This site has been annoying me over a far more serious issue recently and that is that some people are allowed to get away with some absolutely appalling behaviour and they don't get called on it partly because people are sick of seeing the bloody mess the fallout from that makes. If that kind of thing is going to be allowed to continue, here or elsewhere, in the name of "diversity" then each post is going to have to have a disclaimer (i have tourettes, I have MPD, I got out of the wrong side of bed, it's THAT time of the month) or it's going to get either nasty or empty.

Actually I'm more cross and disappointed about that than everything else that has happened on this site over the last 10 years.

still, we have a birthday in this house. Who wants ?

*note to whoever is in charge of the new h2g2: pls make sure that the subject line stays - unless that also needs pulling - for pulled posts. Or hide the whole thread. the thing has annoyed me for ages and ages

With regard to swearing, I have to say it's very disheartening to have read that a hootoo researcher (presumably this person is working with, if not a member of, the consortium?) recommends this article as being even a starting point. This article lists sweary words in order of "offensiveness" based on a specific sample group, and I have to say I really hope we don't have people this uptight here.

http://www.audiencemap.com/whitepapers/delete_expletives.pdf

But this:

"some people are allowed to get away with some absolutely appalling behaviour and they don't get called on it partly because people are sick of seeing the bloody mess the fallout from that makes. If that kind of thing is going to be allowed to continue, here or elsewhere, in the name of "diversity" then each post is going to have to have a disclaimer"

sums it ALL up for me. There are two individuals in particular who in recent months (and over the last year or two) are literally ruining other people's enjoyment of the site. Now I know I'm not a long-timer, I've only been here a little over nine years, and I've never been terribly prolific poster, so I don't expect anyone to care or even notice my dwindling participation. I realize it's much more important to be someone who posts a lot- even if those posts are disruptive, abusive and/or asinine- than to chip in periodically but unobtrusively. And that's fine, but it does make it hard to want to bother.

That said... enjoy the birthday cake, Sho!

it's in the shape of a Cookie Monster and was rather tasty!

Oh, Sho, you do seem to be having a bad time. And perhaps you should choose your 'friends'/threads more wisely. I have been on here for years and have never had a problem with unpleasantness, and I draw the line at swearing on a public site anyway, however much I might be tempted. A good suffices for me.

There is a lot of comparatively silly light hearted stuff which I don't spend time on, not having either the time or inclination, any more than I have for other 'social' sites, some of which are very much more unpleasant and uncontrolled that this one has ever been.

I am just keeping my head down till it is all sorted, and then I will criticise if I feel the need.

In the meantime I give thanks to all those who have taken responsibility for rescuing a site that has meant a great deal to me over the years, especially more recently, and I look forward to seeing what happens. I have made some good friends (real ones) here, some better than some of my so called RL friends.

Glass half full me, these days, not half empty

Websailor

Hi psychocandy. It was me who posted the link to the broadcasting white paper. And yes, I do have quite a bit to do with the consortium having drafted the bid documents. I've a lot less to do with the new mods, because I've pulled back for a couple of months while I (fail to) do some studying.

What's your concern about the white paper? I didn't say anything other than that it had a list of swear words in it, which it does, and that using that list would save kea putting together a list of her own.

Looking at it just now, I find it interesting how swear words move "up" and "down" the list, it notes that the n-word and the similarly racist p-word were rising, but I think they'd be even higher today.

I think we all know we've had really shoddy moderation for the last couple of years, and none of us want to replicate that.

I was saying elsewhere that moderation, done by *humans* should take into account location, context and intent. Oh, and be based on common sense not mindless nitpicky rules.

I have to say this whole thing has completely ruined my Sunday.

B

oh blimey - I didn't mean to ruin anyone's sunday

The thing about swearing is, for me, actually i don't really care one way or another. One thing I don't actually approve of is posting the word with a 1 for an i for example to get around using the s-word for poo.

I would actually prefer to see or "expletive deleted" to get accross the message that the poster is saying something that they feel needs strong language.

But then, as I said, being an ex-soldier I have a high threshold for most swear words but since having children in the house I've been trying to watch that and cut it all out.

The behaviour - I think it was two weekends ago when it all reached a head and that was got a lot of people wondering if this was the new direction the site was taking, if it was a kick off about something that happened here (possibly somewhere not a lot of people had seen) or if it was just a kind of end of term (end of BBC) type of weird euphoria.

As the week went on it all got a bit with lots of people posting things which (intentinally or not) got up some noses but it seemed that one or two people were being tiptoed around where others were being yikesed and modded at the drop of a hat.

We on h2g2 are famous navel gazers and a lot of what goes on here, not to do with the guide, comes back to that. Sometimes it's what makes the place sticky, but sometimes it's what makes people start backing away. But it's also provoking something along the lines of "villagers with pitchforks and flaming torches" even if it's only one or two of them.

I think I just need a holiday

You didn't ruin my Sunday, Sho. Not at all. I like seeing what post in their journals, and it's important people can vent. What scraped on my nerves was the three or four threads about moderation kicking off this weekend.

Ignore me. I'm whingey. I've just deleted a paragraph of whine. Talking of which, . There! That's better.

B