h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

From the pages of 'the Onion' recently...

God answers wheeelchair-bound child's prayer to walk again. 'No' says God.

snicker

I'd like to join FFFF. Can I be the Patron Saint of Agnosticism?

I've already submitted a guide entry on Agnosticism. You can read it at:
http://www.h2g2.com/A371873

Bookmark. No comment on xtians

Hi Fragilis. Welcome to FFFF. Patron Saint? Sounds like one of the other groups...

I'll pop over to see your article now.

-jb

I updated and resubmitted my piece on critical rationalism pursuant to receiving a comment from the editors that they couldn't understand what the hell I was talking about. Would you folks mind offering some feedback? http://www.h2g2.com/A262739

This might be a worthwhile piece to link from the FFFF main page, too, because it rather neatly dismisses blind absolutist fideism as an annoying speedbump on the path to useful understanding of anything. I think that this is probably the thing I most vehemently want to communicate to others regarding this entire 'faith' situation.

Ok, I also updated and revised my entry on 'God' following Moxson's comment that it was too short. Drop by and check out the new, improved, funnier 'God' entry at http://www.h2g2.com/A252316. Sellers, you'll like this one, at your request I included some slightly more vicious and profane mockery of institutionalized belief gone horribly awry, somewhat akin to earlier forum postings that you expressed some admiration for.

I want to thank everyone who stopped by the Agnosticism entry and left a comment.

And I hereby avow that I may or may not be the Patron Saint of Agnosticism. I demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!

heh-heh

Hallo everybody. I only just found my way back to the FFFF. I somehow lost the link and felt awfully bad, seeing that I have been taken on as director of agnostic studies, without submitting anything "productiv" up until now. So it´s mea culpa (f**k, that´s christian, too, isn´t it?)

Might I make the offer of renaming my position at the FFFF? Compared to the article Fragilis wrote, I think it a little "Größenwahnsinnig" (Just looked that one up: Megalomaniac)to call myself a director (although then again I believe anyone owning a desc in America is called something like Vice-Sub-President). May I humbly turn to being a student of agnostic studies. It really is a fact that I fell flat out thinking about the posibilities agnostics and atheism offer.

It´s that bloody question of who am I, what is life about...

I just want to state that it´s a pitty Quorthons article on Hitler and Christianity has been taken out. I´m perticullarly fond of anything that gives christians something to go on bleeting about.

Twophlag: good job on both articles. I'll link the Critical Rationalism one... probably should have from the beginning, but the error shall be corrrected.

Fragilis: welcome, and thanks for the article as well! We've had some animated discussions between agnostics and atheists, and none of these outspoken agnostics ever bothered to write an article on their beliefs, so this was a glaring gap in the library that is now happily filled. I do have one suggestion on your chair name... there's a group around here called the Guardian Angels that name themselves Patron Saints of Spanner Wrenches and Fried Onions and such. Your office title might suggest that you were a member of that group. It's your decision, though.

Englander: this thing is set up like a real Foundation, and you are a member of the Board of Directors, which means you can call yourself pretty much anything you want... after all, that's your only privilege, in lieu of salary. Still, I can make the change if you feel strongly about it.

Well I Do Feel A Little about it. That might be a german streight on top, or some other wierd reson. Know where your place is ( or not). Is there a place in life and if yes what determines it and ... Oh god, why do I talk about this anyway?

If you´re an agnostic, isn´t it neccessary to go right down to Descartes and say: I do not only believe there is no proof of god, but only my thinking is a proof for my existance. So if I only just about exist, how about you lot?.

I believe I havn´t slept enough...

:-o

I should thank Colonel Sellers for the chair name advice. I liked the inherent contradiction of being the patron saint of a faithless belief system, but I don't want to be confused with a Guardian Angel. So I shall change it to... hmm... the Sprite of Sonic Stigma. This is an anagram for Priest of Agnosticism.

I don't think Englander should feel pressured to change his title unless he genuinely wants to. I am new here and prefer silly titles, so I don't see that there's any sort of conflict.

Twoplhag, I enjoyed both of your articles. My only recommendation would be to organize the article on God with headers and/or subheaders. This will make your entry easier to read and make it appear longer (for the H2G2 editors).

No seriously. I do think, director is a bit out as a title. I´ve not a lot of direction at the moment, so I´d better stay in some kind of searching position.

I´ve been thinking a lot about the concepts of what in german is called the "Erkenntnis". My Oxford lexicon offers the terms cognition and knowledge ( as in Tree of knowledge) but that doesn´t quite fit all the grand articles written on Erkenntnis. To realy be an agnostic I should have to have no cognition of anything, neither God nor myself. Reminds me a bit of that chap at the end of the hitchhikers radioseries.(lol)

To be an atheist I should have a cognition that there is no god. So I should have a cognition of myself.

And here it all droped down for me today, as I need to at least believe, I´ve got an idea of myself, allthough I know, I can´´t be shure who I am.

I think one of the problems is, that the faith, belief and whatnot god concept has a theoretical part, in which you can just go on discusing like above.
And then there is the thing: You´ve got these christians who tell you they know the truth, and your left abused by their determind idea, they are right. And I believed myself it was right, untíl I started thinking and stopped praying....

To be continued. Has anyone got a cup of tea ready???

*pouring Englander a cup of nice British-style tea*

Luckily, I've read the Guide entry on doing this properly. Otherwise, you've have gotten cold sweet tea from the Southern US.

Hello Englander, still rockin' I see. I am tired, and have nowt 2 say *^_^*

Ladies, Gentleman, Meine sehr verehrten Damen und Herren.

I would like to put forward a few points for the agenda-rock.

1. What actually is the problem with christians?
I would like to draw a clear line between actually philosophical discussions on christianity and my personal problems with christians.
It has been put forward to me, that there could be a difference in how to value the setup of christianity (its ethics, it´s morals and its ontology (HAH! I got that one from trying to study philosophy in 1992)) and the personal contacts we had to people claiming to be "reborn christians in a loving relationship to their Dear Lord Jesus Christ, who sent his Dear Holy Spirit...(and never ever thought of the word >f**king<".

2. What are our basic axioms to life, the universe and everything?
One of them should be biccering about exactly this question.

3. Is it actually relevant which of the religious/non-religios or pseudo-religious or non-pseudo-religious concepts you follow?

4. Since I un-became a "reborn christian" I am struggeling with going around like a missionary with my idea of the good life.
So what do I do with all my asumptions my beliefs, hopes, fears, troubles, anxieties, lust, and all the other things I want to share with humanity in large?

5. Just to make it clear: I believe that the whole christian concept is a cock-up. There might be a few moral concepts, which we take for granted, having been brought up in a more or less christian sociaty (unlike people in e.g. Iran)and which are worthwhile to be cept. But the whole thing with: a god creating the whole mess, the tree of knowledge buissness, Jesus being alive, Hell and Armageddon just doesn´t figure.

6. I would like to make a pol for an FFFF-Anthem. My suggestion for a song in english language would be Joni Mitchell´s "God must be a bogey man." A german title could be Udo Lindenbergs "Grande finale" It´s got the line "Immer Lustig und vergnügt, bis der Arsch im Sarge liegt" (Which means (figurativly translated: "Allways happy and content, until your arse is heaven sent" litraly translated it means "until your arse lies in the coffin)I´ll try and put in the text and translation as an article (If I find the time)

1) I think I speak for most people here when I say that the problems with Christians are (a) They're more than just a bit irrational, and (b) they won't leave the rest of us alone.

2) Your axioms can be whatever you want them to be. I think everyone here has a different outlook on life, the universe, and all that. The purpose for having a forum like this is to be able to discuss our own personal beliefs without being damned by some overzealous Jesus-freak. If you're looking for a uniform declaration of beliefs from the Foundation, you're going to be disappointed. This is a discussion area, not a cult.

3) not particularly

4) I prefer the passive approach. If people ask, I tell them. If the subject is raised, I warm to it. But otherwise, I keep it to myself. It's a decision you have to make for yourself, though, whether you're going to proselytize or not. I think many of us are here because we don't like that sort of thing, though, so doing so would only create the same negative image for yourself and other freethinkers that mars Christianity.

5) Yep

6) Our Musical Director is already working on such a project. Any lyrics you wish to add to the collection should be submitted to GreyRose's (what is she calling herself nowadays? Robyn-something?) page entitled "Hymns of the FFFF." You can find the link on the FFFF page in the library, under "Academia."

I would like to concur with the good Colonel, so I will. I concur with the good Colonel.

The main problem I have with Christians amoung others is the drive to convince other people that *YOUR* view of the universe is the one and only correct one. I am not interested in converts or converting. I'm one of those 'many paths' kind of folks. Not however one of the "all paths lead to ..." type folk, some stuff is to wacko even for the likes of me.

1> I have to admit that while orthodox Christianity does not particularly interest me per se, I do find myself rather fascinated with the life and legend of a man who managed to shake up history so much. Hell, our calendar is based on his date of birth, and they even celebrated his 2000th anniversary in china. That has to be worth something.
I have made some attempts to understand who he was historically and what his viewpoint and message was based on what is thought to be credibly attributable to him, and I have to say that it seems like a clear case of the messenger being put on a pedestal while the message is all but forgotten.
I think the term 'Christian' is sort of grossly misused, and I think it may be worth considering that one can be a 'Christian' without being a Christ-worshipper and vice-versa. In other words, one can be an admirer of his moral philosophy without being an idolater hung up on the worship of an old dead guy. I have no problem with Christians per se, who I think are for the most part people who recognize the value of the Judaic prophetic traditions as opposed to the eschatological ones. Blind fideist fanaticism obliterating any hope of reasoned opinions being able to form is a crime, though.

2> Be excellent to each other? I'm sort of into metaphysics and stuff and would love to get into a rousing debate about the implications of relativity theory if anyone is up for it. I think most of us are united by the concept of 'not lodging one's head firmly up one's ass prior to discussions of cosmology'.

3> No, but I think we should all agree that the next time we find ourselves arguing angels on the head of a pin with some zealous nutbar we should pay heed to the debating tactics offered by the Discordians. Wave your hands and scream 'gobble gobble gobble' at them. Or point out that God is a crazy woman named Eris, and then point out that anyone of their intellectual calibre would understand that you are of course speaking of a mythological archtype that represents a facet of human existence in a seemingly random and cynically cruel universe.

4> Write them down. I'm currently working on a book which had several false starts but it is more or less serving exactly this purpose. I took a cue from Plato and decided to get it all down in the form of a dialogue, an interview between some media personality and a homeless insane fellow who claims he is the Messiah. I found that this character is an excellent mouthpiece for all kinds of marvellous ideas because he is exactly the sort of person people expect to spew nonsense all the time.

5> There has never been an idea so clearly stated, so brilliantly communicated, that someone, somewhere, hasn't managed to horribly misunderstand and misapply it.

6> We should put the 2001 theme in mp3 format on the FFFF hymnal =)

Proselytization is the proper term for it. Preaching with a view to convert others to your own belief system. The Quakers frown on it. The Baptists virtually require it as a definition of what a Christian is and does. One fundamentalist in the h2g2 christians forum ventured to define the comparative superiority of his religion by the number of missionaries it has on the ground in other countries.

In the news today, religion affirms its principles of brotherly love and ecumenicism. Vermont yesterday ratified a law making it legal for churches and registries to perform same-sex marriages. The Presbyterian ministry has moved swiftly, voting to ban any minister who performs such a ceremony.

And the lesson of that story, clearly, is don't be a Presbyterian minister in Vermont.