h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Actually, this discussion of Carl Sagan brings to mind the works of Thomas Kuhn, notably The Structure of Scientific Revoloutions (University of Chicago Press). Sagan makes the assumption that the only othodox method of 'knowledge' is through scientific research, which is a ommon fallicy in this century because scientific research has accomplished so many remarkable things so quickly. However, even scientific knowledge is a 'model' of reality and not the reality itself, and no good scientist ever considers anything he researches to be 'fact'. So it seems Sagan's worries were at least somewhat misguided; the news media is misguided in its approach to various issues, but so are many scientists, especialy when money and academic reputations are on the line. It ultimately falls on the consumer of information to be wise in sifting out what he feels is applicable to him. Sagan was hardly a true Fortean. David Bohm, however, probably was (is he still alive?). See also: Myths, Models and Paradigms by Ian Barbour.

I didn't mean to suggest that Sagan was a Fortean, merely that he had expressed concern about the number of charlatans who are gaining credibility peddling pseudo-scientific ideas, often at the expense of genuine research. The crux of the problem, as described in Demon Haunted World, is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for the layman to make informed decisions about reality. He was, at least in my interpretation, claiming that the current scientific view should be regardied as absolute truth either; rather that good scientific methodology and a healthy skepticism should be used to safeguard our concepts of truth from the pitfalls of bigotry to which we have fallen victim in the past.

Sorry. Obviously that should read:

"He was, at least in my interpretation, claiming that the current scientific view should NOT be regarded as absolute truth either; rather that good scientific methodology and a healthy skepticism should be used to safeguard our concepts of truth from the pitfalls of bigotry to which we have fallen victim in the past."

JTG

I see. I find it mildly ironic that Sagan would take this stance; pot and the teakettle. I have seen Sagan field some remarkably lame ideas, usually in the process of dismissing something outright that probably deserved more attention. Just goes to show: intelligence doesn't always make an open mind, nor a self-aware one.

I recall Sagan entering into a discussion one time about the NDE or Near Death Experience. He contended that the NDE was a flashback to a buried recollection of emerging from the birth canal, hence the tunnel, light, feeling of displacement, etc. Now, without actually making any assertions one way or the other about NDE's, I would like to say that I have had 6 or 7 personal experiences with death of close friends or relatives (i'm afraid i lost count some time back), and in every case I have witnessed some strange, 'paranormal' things happening concurrently (not overt, more Jungian). I expect this is pretty common, but usually people are too wrapped up in grief to notice and take these things into accuont with a cool head.

Anyways, it seems like a lame duck explanation. People usually report feelings of warmth and comfort associated with NDE's, and birth is generally a painful and cold experience, so it seems odd that he might compare them. Also, NDE's usually result in some kind of personal paradigm shift for the participants, so it seems an important psychological aspect is being neglected. I'm not saying Sagan is wrong... I'm pointing out that he himself was quick to jump in and offer pseudoscience in defense of his worldview (solidly founded on the rejection of non-empirical data).

Er, that's not to say that I necessarily disagree with Mr. Sagan At least on this topic... there does seem to be a lack of awareness of anything relevant in most media endeavours. It panders to zombies and creates zombies to pander to.. viscious circle.

Much as I would like to see the masses uplifted, I think it is naive to assume they can be, or that the media will take it on themselves to make the effort. Probably the best soloution is to "let those who have ears to hear" hear the truth and allow those who wish to wallow in vapidity do as they wish... we all have to seek our own answers, and information. (I for one advocate a total buoycott of all printed and public media... does wonders for your state of mind!)

Sadly, I think you are right. The human we experience on the highway and in the elevator (as well as the bathroom mirror) is a product of the myth it created, as immured as a termite and as alien to nature as a Holstein cow.

JTG

You know, I am one of those people who often finds himself staring into a bathroom mirror and having those 'self moments', or feelings of detachment, where i wonder what the hell i am, how i got to wondering what the hell i am, how i got here, why i got here, and what i plan to do about it. There seems to be some sort of 'event horizon' at the boundaries of consciousness, from which no information really escapes. I suspect this is the reason we spend a lot of time misunderstanding each other.

I still hold out foolish hope... i don't think we are alien to nature, just that we are a most perplexing expression of it. There are good people out there, and I feel that i am probably talking to one now; mythology has its place if we understand it for what it is.

'Self moments' , if we mean the same thing by the term, seem to me to be strange moments of lucidity, when a person really gets a sense of being a living organism at large in an actual environment. To me the aspect of strangeness lies in the fact that, for most of the time, we get along without them, living like caricatures in a world of dreams. Culture seems, to me, to be the voluntary suppression of a direct relationship with the real, in favour of a consensual shorthand version; which, I believe, is all that any mythology is.

It's an interesting game to try to strip the world of cultural values, and try to relate to it like an amoeba or a slug, basing your interpretation of events on their direct affect on you as an organism. People really are a part of nature... how could they not be? (Unless we really were manufactured somewhere else. ) But, as a gardener, I have quite a good perspective from which to regard the way a lot of them relate to it.

There are a lot of good people. Most people are good, or at least consistant to what they believe that term to mean. I think the trick is to find a context in which that word means the same thing to everyone. The Internet and 'places' like the Guide are interesting because they provide a new way of achieving that end.

JTG

Just so.

You know, even if we were manufactured somewhere else, an argument could be made that the manufacturer itself has to be following its nature. You could regard human achievements as natural, if somewhat unusual... I have this idea that some alien spaceship might one day wander by earth, see the buildings and houses and structures thereon, and maybe consider it just to be a strange natural anomaly, sort of like we might see a coral reef.

It is a strange game. I live in a bachelor apartment with a gerbil, i dropped school in favour of taking a menial job, i have no checking account or retirement plan, and my life goals are pretty much caught up in the moment; get up or don't get up, eat or don't eat, write or don't write. I'm not always terribly happy with the way I live, but I know it was a necessary experience for me to try it this way... I couldn't conceive of taking the idea of a career in IT seriously. Hell, I can't even take money seriously.

We'll have to get into mythology another time; Carl Jung did a pretty profound study of it, and raised some really good points, but it's kind of a complicated and long-winded discussion.

Everyone seems to want acceptance of themselves. Good and evil are culturally determined, but the fact that we were all infants at one point or another is universal. I would guess that the internet will erode cultural boundaries within another 100 years... let's hope the ecosystem hangs out long enough to see it happen.

I don't think an alien would be far wrong in thinking that. All we're really doing is rearranging things so that this group or that has more or less access to the plankton. Where we've gone wrong, as anybody looking at the reef from above would see, is that nearly all the good stuff is being syphoned off by the few at the top.

As I sat watching the Millennium celebrations, televised from around the world, it struck me again how similar and basic our aspirations are, despite our many differences. All any of us want is to have enough to eat, to raise our hypothetical kids in peace, and watch the fireworks. It seems to me that the struggle we face is between our basic needs and simple pleasures and the inertia of our cultures, which grind across the surface of the planet, ridden by an elite that has to pretend to have control or risk falling off and being squashed. The millenium is an artificial benchmark, but it is no less real. We should watch closely to see what lengths the people riding the balls will go to in order to convince the rest of us that being crushed is alright.

I had similar thoughts about it. In fact, I wrote something about it and posted it on my page a while ago, but noone seems to have noticed. Drop by and give it a scan sometime.. it's not even remotely polished but it does express my views on things pretty succinctly. It's listed as a conversational thread related to my main page.

Very well done. In fact, it is just the sort of thing I was hping to find for The Tibetan Greenhouse Dugout. Would you consider contributing it? I would, of course, credit you with having written it and link it back to your homepage.

I'd be happpy to contribute it... I'll try and smooth it out some (i'm doing second draft on my book now anyways) and get it up there in a day or two.

Twophlag Gargleblap: "Much as I would like to see the masses uplifted, I think it is naive to assume they can be, or that the media will take it on themselves to make the effort."

But don't you see, you are part of the masses?

} kenji

Of course... I never claimed to be beyond needing improvement.

It's really too bad that Carl Sagan died before they found out pi actually does eventually come to an end, and is not the perpetual number that was once believed. I remember watching his show on PBS when I was a kid. I still love that show to this day. That's what really got my mind wrapped around Science like it is.
[observes a moment of silence as Tool plays in the background]
That's the funny thing about science... people keep making new discoveries which change all the rules. It's funny to compare what we know now about the universe, to what we knew just 20 years ago. Amazing, really.

"It's really too bad that Carl Sagan died before they found out pi actually does eventually come to an end, and is not the perpetual number that was once believed."

Hmm. I think it has been proved beyond doubt that pi is a non-recurring non-terminating number in any integer base representation - a fact almost certainly well known to Dr. Sagan. This was known as long ago as 1770. Try http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath313.htm for a discussion of the proof if you're interested.

Just out of idle curiousity, how do you know "birth is generally a painful and cold experience"? I seem to be one of the unfortunate few who has no recollection of my birth.....
As for your other response, yeah, it might be nice to leave the poor fools who read and believe everything in the newspapers in their current unelightened state, but the they have a lot of power and influence. Never underestimate the power of the Fool. They affect us all. If there were some way of teaching them, this world would be a much better- or at least much different- place.

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