h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm starting a journal here about specifically that and my feelings and thoughts about it. I'll start off linking to another journal where I mentioned something to do with it, but it really belongs here. Post 3. http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/brunel/F2082070?thread=8285063&post=110475546#p110475546 There's a lot of thoughts I have about it and anxieties. I'll gradually post more here about all that.

All my life..and I mean all going back to about 3..I've asked questions about things I want to understand. She got sick of it of course. As if I cared..and anyway I quickly realised I was much brighter than her.

I don't want to understand everything. I didn't want to understand how the BBC control of h2g2 worked..the hierachy or anything. I would have no influence on anything changing to do with them so it was pointless. And also I fundamentally trusted them.

But I do want to understand how this Not Panicking Ltd works and the hierachy and power structures and the aims.

Private companies in the capitalist system are there to make money for the owners...a profit. It really is that simple. I've had it all my life from my father in a personal sense as well.

Charitable foundations are clearly designed to raise money for a clearly proscribed cause. Co-operatives aren't about making a profit.

I sense I'm annoying some here by keeping on with the questions. But how on earth am I to decide if I want to contribute to this companies aims..if I know virtually nothing about them?

And where does the profit go?

There will be a contract that clearly makes that clear. Lawyers will have drawn it up carefully .

Hi Effers

All really really important questions.

At the moment h2g2 is owned by Not Panicking who are a private company. We are in the process of drawing up a legal agreement whereby the community will form a company limited by guarantee, a not-for-profit company who will own 1/3. Anyone from the community will be able to join the not-for-profit and elect a director to the board.

As I said in the other thread is actually a really complex arrangement legally, and it hasn't been sorted out yet.

Alongside the legal agreement we're working on the help pages which will explain this to everyone on site who will want to know the answers to the very sensible questions that you've asked.

Once we've drawn this up then all the details will be on h2g2.

It is important. Half of it I really can't grasp, but I'm confident it will be working fine in the end

And, I'm sure there will be elections for roles in time, in some form.

Hi Z,

Thanks for explaining that.

I am very worried about things, and that is because h2g2 is so dear to my heart as a community. I can't marry in my mind a community with a capitalist structure. Some of this is for personal reasons to do with the effect on my life of placing making money above caring and relationships in my family.

Also I got to learn a lot of stuff first hand, about it because of that.

And I know there is nothing a switched on business likes better than to get into bed with people who are totally naive about business.

I simply don't understand why so many people are working for free. I keep thinking Noesis must be rubbing their hands gleefully to have a lot of very talented people giving so much, without even being paid.

Also I was shocked just how poor the Noesis site was. There was nothing happening there as a social network..it was virtually moribund without us. The design of the site was appalling. And there was stuff like if you hovered your curser over someone's name, it would tell you what they were doing..like 'having pm with someone' or 'searching'.

It really disgusted me in so many ways. Also the form filling to become a member. There was zero creativity on that place.

For the life of me I can't fathom how something as *dynamic* and full of life as h2g2 would be getting into bed with such a company.

Warning bells are ringing.

Plus where is this Robbie Stamp? Why isn't he here bigging up morale?

Does he really care? or is it is business deal?

I have to be honest because I lived with a father who knew *exactly* how it all works.

That's probably a very important reason why I am so messed up..

But bells keep ringing..

And Z this is not to attack you. We'd be dead without what's happened. I'm just being totally straight with you.

Hi Effers

This is a long post: sorry.

I can answer some of this from my personal experience of being behind the scenes when it did happen.

Firstly we're not naive about business, many of the interim committee had worked in the IT business. Ben has run her own company and worked for multinational banks. She's also just finished a masters degree in, er, business.



Why are people working for free? Because they care about h2g2. Because volunteers on h2g2 have always worked for free, these are people who have been Scouts, and Sub editors, and ACEs who are now Guide Editors, Community Editors, and mod. Because ultimately they will be part of the community consortium that will own 1/3 of it.

The way the BBC ran h2g2 cost a lot of money, and even if we covered the site with advertising I don't think we could ever have hoped to run the site with paid moderators, and paid staff they way they did.

When I wrote the business plan back in February it was obvious that no one was going to be able to run h2g2 along the current model without serious changes. It simply wasn't going to raise enough money to pay for the staff needed. If a commercial company bid they would either take the hitchikers name and slap it on their own stuff, or make serious changes.

But how could it continue? Well it did have a dedicated community who were willing to do the work. That would mean that we could run it with no over-heads whilst we were getting it up and running.



Why did we get in bed with Noesis? Well I wouldn't say that we got into bed with them! But we choose to form a partnership with them because they had somethings that we really needed. Noesis aren't a big bad evil business, they're a company run by a couple, Brian and Aly Larholm. They're people.

1. A lot of servers. Have you noticed how fast the site runs now? That's because of Noesis's servers.

2. Technical expertise, they'd done a project like this before. They were technically capable of transferring a site from one server to another and not loosing it. We only had a two week downtime, that was because of Brian's technical expertise. Pastey did a lot of the work for free as well, but Brian brought a lot to the table. Pastey posts on h2g2 and gets all the credit, but Brian's their too. I've rung Brian about technical problems at all times of the day and night, and he's been able to fix them.

3. Experience of running community sites. They'd run a moderation scheme with community volunteer moderators on their sites for years and years and years.

We got the impression that the BBC would not have sold the site to someone who didn't have a lot of servers, technical expertise, and experience of running communities.



They run lots of other sites besides the forums that we hijacked during the transition. It doesn't matter that they aren't much like h2g2, because what makes h2g2 unique is 'us' the community. If noesis bring a superfast server, and a lot of technical knowledge about how to run websites, then we the h2g2 community and Robbie will take it and make it special.



On a personal level - when Ben and I first spoke to Aly and Brian we really got on with them, and felt that we could trust them. They seemed to get the importance of community. We spent a lot of time talking to them, about their lives, and how they came to be running noesis, and why they wanted to bid for h2g2.

Just a few days after the bid meeting at the BBC they came to a meet in a Saturday in London, because they wanted to say hi to everyone. We couldn't tell anyone who they were, we just introduced them as 'our friends Aly and Brian' but the fact that they were willing to give up their Saturday to meet the web community they were helping to save meant a lot.



Where is Robbie Stamp? Well he certainly is very involved, Ben and I spoke to him about h2g2 just a couple of days ago, and I can tell you that he certainly does care a great deal. He lurks a lot and posts a little.

>Why are people working for free? Because they care about h2g2. Because volunteers on h2g2 have always worked for free, these are people who have been Scouts, and Sub editors, and ACEs who are now Guide Editors, Community Editors, and mod. Because ultimately they will be part of the community consortium that will own 1/3 of it.<

It's just that I've never come across a business in the real world where so many talented people are working for free. My opinion is that Noesis are taking advantage of people *caring*...that was the whole point I made in the previous post..I thought you would have got that. These things don't *marry*

As for Noresis..I'm just going on what a pile of crp it was...and obviously I'm not alone in thinking that.

Have you actually really looked at that site and seen how few posts there are there? how little activity?

It's nothing to do with being evil...I'm going on *hard evidence* The place is DEAD.

Glad you got on with Ally and Brian. What that has to do with anything is beyond me..if the evidence of what a ghost town the Noesis site is, is to judge them.

And yes you're not kidding...Robbie Stamp does post very little...great to hear how much he cares though..

**

My dad always drummed into me that you go on the evidence where business is concerned...as they always do on Dragon's Den..not any sweet talking...not getting on...

THE EVIDENCE.

For me the evidence is that Noesis is a pile of crp.

>>>It's just that I've never come across a business in the real world >> where so many talented people are working for free. My opinion is that Noesis are taking advantage of people *caring*...that was the whole point I made in the previous post..I thought you would have got that. These things don't *marry*.

Perhaps it would be worth looking at all the facts before making your mind up. Can you give us a few days to get the full legal structure out there. It's a unquie structure, and as far as we know we're the only website run with it.

If you want to look at the facts then you can't just look at one site owned by Noesis, you should look at all of them.

The chat rooms with over 1 million users is their main site: it doesn't look like the sort of site that appeals to me, but obviously it appeals to alot of people. http://www.worldsbiggestchat.com/

But if it means we can use them to survive for h2g2..all to the good.

But I have my eyes fully open about what I think of Noesis.

That's the point.

We do things h2g2 way. Stick with our ways. Not start putting people off here using heavy handed modding and pathetic interpretation of House Rules.

Jesus you need me..you need Ed..you need kea, anhaga,swl, Tiggy etc etc.

Of late it feels like we have to fit into some new rigid humourless regime.

Let us breathe a bit.

We *use* them. We've got what they want...talent, life, humour, caring,

I'm just putting the relationship in a different light from my POV.

I'm allowed. It's my Journal. That' s why I started it.

You are fully entitled to disagree of course.

But we are all on the same side. We want to save h2g2. That's what matters.

Of course.

I wanted to give you more information so you could make an informed decision.

simpost.

cheers Z.

I appreciate you taking to trouble to explain your POV, and not getting into argument.

Your a good 'un

Hey Effers!

I'd be asking exactly the same questions if I was where you were.. they're sensible and important questions.

Effers, I'm thinking about your opinon on Noesis.

In a way, I can understand some of your views on how the Noesify forum is - it's not the h2g2 community at the rest of the place. Which is OK with me, all sites have the right to collect the people they want.

But that's the thing, I don't think Aly and Brian are forcing the forum visitors there to behave in a certain fashion (other than being polite and so on), any more than they are forcing us here to be in anyway.

Saying that, I realise that you probably feel you are being told how to behave and how not. I do feel sorry about that. But the moderation is performed by unpaid volunteers. No need to drag all that up.

I think we have a great deal going - h2g2 is up and running on Noesis servers. They are not getting any payment, not even advertising money for that. All for free! Imagine, free serverspace and support by Noesis tech staff. I am deeply grateful for that. And until we do generate income, likely by advertising, there isn't money to pay moderators, coders, or any other person doing jobs for free. Maybe later. But not now. We have servers, but for everything else, we depend on ourselves volunteering, writing, making the site what it is.

Let's take care of our little planet in cyberspace?

Milla you're not quite getting where I'm coming from...don't worry though I know what you're saying..I know all that.

I'm taking a specific stance...and surely you must see some of my input concerns are to do with my specific background which I spoke about..

Let's leave it.

I may post more here though..depends what comes up.

Oh god

I had a very brief look at that 'world biggest chat' thing.

How on earth would people with expertise in stuff know what to do with h2g2?

It would be like some McDonalds management trying to help save a brilliant resraurant in distress.

I hope you're right Z and it'll work...I just don't see it. Apples and Oranges..

If it all goes pear shaped..can we not set up some simple emergency base where those of us here who really value high quality discusion..I mean there's some top of the range brains around here..can at least stay in contact for discusions.?

Some positives.

1. Great to get to know Pastey and where he's coming from. Excellent person. (I told him so)

2. I continue to really like the stuff kea posts, points raised, and her awareness of community in a way I can really relate to.

(I would like to tell her directly but I won't for her sake. I can only hope she'll read this. I find it hard not to tell people good things about them..but this is a special case.)

3. Dr. Zen is very easy to talk to about my concerns. He's ace. (He's on this thread.)


All these things help to make me feel more calm about things here.

Didn't last long.

Please come back Taff..please, please. This place is so constipated without you.

Or 2legs....can't you dump William?