h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

IMHO, multiculturalism is good and right. People shouldn't have to give up their culture, whether they're first generation immigrants or they can trace their families back to the Norman conquest. But it shouldn't over-ride the law of the land. Basically if someone wants to do something defined by their culture and it's against the law of the country they live in - then they need to move to a country where it IS legal. This isn't racist, it's not a "send them all back where they came from" attitude. The law's there in the most part to protect people. If you don't think it's fair that you can't beat your wife without getting in trouble, then try to get the law changed. Or go somewhere else amongst other wife-beaters.

Deb

Well Auntie Deb, they're out on the streets in their flag-waving millions in Turkey. The first step on a long road for them. It's not going to be easy.
As an ancient Celtic Welshman I feel I'm very lucky; I feel I can keep my identity up my sleeve or when appropriate on my sleeve and tour the world, blend in, do as Romans do, and so on. It's a tool in my kitbag, a sandwich in my rucksack. But I wouldn't wind you up with it or shove it down your throat.

But Deb, if wife-beating is such a great culture why come to one where it isn't allowed.

It's not about wife-beating - as much as it is an issue of gender. it is one of mutual respect for human rights. Which I thought we had here in Germany.

What about if and I go boozing all night and spend our money on fags and drink. Will the German courts tell my kids that it's "British culture, hard cheese"?

No, I thought not.

I would have thought, however, that these jugements fall foul of European law?

<> (Sho)

I never said wife-beating was such a great culture. I was making a comment on the article linked to by WanderingAlbatross, which was about some men in Germany who were not properly penalised for forms of wife-beating or murdering, because of their cultural backgrounds. I agree people shouldn't move to a country where their actions will be illegal, but some people are already there, have been for generations. These were the people I was talking about.


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The second paragraph of the link I was referring to says:

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She was his wife, he beat her.

<>

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean by that so I can't respond to it.

Deb

Yes there was also some big demonstrations in Pakistan recently to protest some Al-Qaeda like parties getting more power.

Just read that link WA

Absolutely horrifying !!!!, but I am not overly surprised, since this 'religion' is, as with all others, ordered and set up by men in order to control and maintain power.

With regard to their imams interpretation of Allah we only need to recall the activities of the Taliban.

I agree, and have argued often on HooToo, that multiculturalism is a failure. Not only does it encourage the 'us and them' syndrome, it clearly keeps the women from enjoying the basic human rights within Europe and in the UK

In it's extreme forms it makes the woman a possession of her husband.

Novo

I don't know about Germany but in Austria they've only recently got round to passing a stalking law which prevents a woman's 'ex' from harassing her. In Britain we've had 'domestic violence registers' and 'injunctions' against this sort of thing for years.
There's a joke in Austria, a country that only does a lot things we take for granted when forced to do so by the EU, that goes something like: to the people who say we're always lagging behind we say look out we're on your heels. Perhaps it's kind of the same in Germany?

Although there are cases of people being dealt with leniently by the authorities because the individuals perspective has been formed by cultures that arent in synch with the laws of a particular land there are just as many if not more of people being dealth with harshly, more harshly than those seen as being from the "home" culture.

I think its a mistake to say the police which in every country Ive been to are a male dominated body and generally firecly patriotic are going to let-off someone with *foriegn* ways. I think its more to do with the maleness of the police force although I cant speak about the German police force as I've enever been there.

What I do see in the UK is a police force that generally handles domestic abuse badly. What I know is that in the sixties my great aunt was sacked on the spot, for having a photograph of her when mini car by wearing a mini skirt and sitting on the bonnet in the local papers. She was sacked for bringing the company into disrepute. The company manufactured parts for the car industry, how times change.

Yet male dominated arms of government dont seem to keep pace with change with the the times there is still as can been seen from other threads here on H2 an intransigent attitude to what woemen should be or not be doing which does not afford women the same rights that a man can exercise.

I am comparing Iran to the West and I think that womens rights in the west are better served but that by no means means I think we do as well as we might like to think we do. Which in itself is bad enough but what really stinks is when westerners use the lame excuse of blaming latitude granted to Islamic tinged cultures when we in the west dont live up to the standards we know should be met.



one love

Mornin Novo,

We should be careful when we criticise because I don't think our position regarding faith schools is any sort of example. Look at the troubles in Northern Ireland that have taken so long to begin to heal and yet we still have Protestant and Catholic schools all over UK. Even worse the habit has been supported by Tony Bliar and extended with Islamic schools.

The Jesuit Francis Xavier said 'Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man'. This adage still seems to be being practised here in Britain.

Fair point WA

Novo

I missed this but reading through the back log i noticed something Im pressuming some of you here saw.

"to liken one's spouse to an articficial plaything is quite unforgiveable. In a face-to-face situation, should one have the gall to say such things about my wife, reguardless of gender, they would be seeking assistance from some well-trained emergency personnel. As has been known to happen, BTW.

While there are people in this thread getting on their high horses about Muslim/middle Eastern and North African attiudes to women and their treatment Id just like to point out that not one forumite thought it worth remarking on this.

I know that people can be provoked by words but seriously I cant imagine *any* insult that would make me think it was worth hospitalising a woman.

one love

Hitting women as well as men is just a sign of equality.

Oh so as long as you are an equal opportunities thug its OK, men hitting their spouses is wrong?

I dint wish toi come across as rude but I have to say that's total rubbish.


Elsewhere on H2 people have been trying to say its not racist to highlight the situation of North African/Middle Eastern Muslim men getting a light judicial touch over wife beating or bullying their children.

Well it is. see Id sayits not racist if people chose to highlight the general lack of action and appropriate sentences handed down to ALL men in such cases but people chose to pick only on certain minority groups. That is racist. Not only that its stupid because statistically in the Western European copuntries we are talking about if they care to look they'd see more incidences of violence to women being carried out by...well its not the people they're scapegoating here in this thread.


one love

"Who cares? I have no sympathy here at all. Despite whatever Western journalists may say about opinion polls, this is clearly what the majority of people in Iran want. They HAD a moderate government. Then they had an election, and the current fundamentalist loony won. Whether we like it or not, those people actually are like that. Where's our respect for their different culture?"

IIRC, the current "looney" was assisted into power with help from his friends in the rightwing Revolutionary Guards and through the Guardian Council (who hold the real power) suppressing liberalising political parties and that his "election" would be considered a complete fraud by Western standards.

I don't doubt Iran is a conservative country but you shouldn't think that the current President is representative of public opinion there. His more-liberal predecessor won two elections in a row on promises to liberalise Iran and was, indeed, heavily-criticised for not doing enough (although the Iranian President has little real political power - that lies with the Ayatollah and Guardian Council).

Hehe, it seems the Iranian president has gotten into a it of trouble himself. He was at some kind of teachers day celebration around 1st may, and he kissed the gloved hand of a woman teacher. So now some people are very uhappy with him doing something so unislamic and revolting.

Some first hand impressions from last week:

Iran's women are wearing hijab. Also, in public, a woman does not shake hands with a man. No news there.

However, as soon as I got inside the office of our agent there, everyone including the women working there shook hands in greeting. After the seminar I gave on my last day there, a lady from the audience actually (it seemed to me) made a point of coming up to say thanks and shake my hand. I took it as a statement of "I shake hands with who I want" - there was still 15 people or so, so I guess it'd be considered public.

Interestingly, on the Emirates flight to Dubai, most hijabs were gone when we arrived - maybe I saw 10% women wearing them as we stepped out (compared to 100% on embarking). As most travelled with their family, it seems not to be the men telling their wives to wear them (given that those travellers are representative, of course).

Some of my colleagues there hinted the same - they said that in comparison to Egypt and Saudi that has "always been islamic", Iran has "had it added" not so long ago. I got the impression that they'd rather have a much more relaxed attitude towards the religion.

I guess for elections, you cast your vote for a number of mixed reasons. If the guys with the religion offers a number of things you'd like to see, you vote that way and take the religion along with the rest. Could be a reason...?

I saw a novelty news item about an Iranian woman bus driver - it seems all the men passengers have to sit at the back.Normally it's a male driver and the women have to occupy the rear seats.
There seems to be an unhealthy macho attitude to the so-called weaker sex in many Arab countries, a kind of - I wear my curved dagger in my pants' belt therefore I'm a real man