h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

With the announcement via Channel4 ( otherwise we probably would not have known!) of this horrendous access to private information,

<< http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6594111.stm >>

How many posters will now allow their medical records to be on the NHS computer system?, and what possible shred of evidence is there for the security of the proposed I D Card based on a national database?

Novo

I got the impression it was about staff records, not patient records, and the act of an individual, not an NHS procedure failure.

The data that was shown, the 'problem' can be fixed, the people can request new bank account numbers. And I know if my bank would not play ball on that, I'd be taking my custom elsewhere.

I don't think we should allow this one event to distract from the benefits a central database could bring.

Speaking as one that went to one hospital to have a scan, only for the 'system' to loose all records of the results when it came to having the surgery at another hospital a week later; I was left wondering why there was not a system in place then (late 1990's).

Hi Fluffylump,

You're right. But what the records were is surely irrelevant, it is the fact that however secure you 'think' a computer system is, it is accessable my humans with passswords etc. Can you guarantee the probity of those who hold 'the key'?

I'm pretty sure the NHS computer system concerned was considered 'safe'

Novo

The NHS computer system (whatever that may be) probably is pretty secure. In this particular case, it seems the data was deliberately published on the web but not linked from anywhere, so you needed the URL and only a few had it. Not "secure" as such, just sort of hidden behind the sofa. Very stupid, but it probably goes on all the time.

To be perfectly honest, I get more annoyed by TV newsrooms inventing their own scandals like this than I do about stupid lapses by the public sector. People make mistakes, especially low-paid, unqualified civil servants. We've all done it; life goes on.

Primarily all it takes is a mistake in judgement of one person with access to sensitive information for these sort of things to happen.

Secondarily there are people who make it their career to find ways to get hold of the information. and with nothing but time on their hands, they can dream up some doozies.

One can "lose" records in a database as easily as in an office, by punching in the wrong number when entering it more often than not. They always blame the computer, don't they!

I agree that it is hard to trust anyone with your information these days, and I agree with your suspicion that sensitive data is out there all the time, just not linked to anything (I've seen it done dozens of times by government employees). The problem is that if it is there long enough web crawlers eventually find it and you can "google" it. I know, because I have found information myself that way accidentally.

You honestly cannot just drop the use of data systems, though. All you can do is try to hammer some sense into the users.

<>

If you're worried about the probity of those with access to information, does it really make a difference how the information is stored? Whether is stolen or misuses might depend on a password rather than the key to the filing cabinet, but still...

Novo, >>> Can you guarantee the probity of those who hold 'the key'? <<<

Nope, you dealing with people. Lord Hunt seems happy enough though.

On the other hand, I've just had some test done, and for anybody outside that department to access those records would require a court order, or so I'm told.

I'd like to know just who could access what, and when, and get to pick and choose; even better if it was all 'dual-key' but is that practiacl?



From http://www.channel4.com/news/article.jsp?id=469417

[quote] The NHS could also be required to pay so that all those listed are able to regularly check their credit reference file. Hardly the best use of valuable resources. [/quote]

Again the "news" is making something up here. Along with "a case to sue the NHS." On the lunchtime news.

I've never been keen on the "what could happen" news items, ITN were doing this a year ago to such an extent I'd switch over, only to find the BBC at it too.

This is a daily Mail 'Worst possible case scenario presented as fact at all times' style story.

I wonder if we ever would have got the railways built in this day and age, given that a prominent politician was killed on the opening day of the Liverpool and Manchester (ie the worlds first) Railway?

Hi Pedro,

As I understand it computer records /data can be technically at least, made almost 100% secure. This is done by multilayer security entry. The best systems use Secure Tokens, which are little bits of hardware which, in conjunction with a password to which it relates, can connect terminal to the mainframe via a server which itself changes the passwords which the two units communicate ( like your on-line banking password and pin )every minute.

Use this inconjunction with second and third level passwords to get to a database and it is pretty foolproof.

But crudely speaking that is the technolgy side. Thus if a computer system is set up by professionals, correctly maintaned, updated as people leave etc then it is only the human element that is likely to fail......

It isn't that aspect which concerns me. Of course anyone can walk off with paper records. If indeed everyone has a price, then much is open to them if they are sufficiently 'trusted'

And that isn't to decry human frailty either. It seems to me to be giving an ever larger amount of personal details to a central registry, where it might be accessible by people who shouldn't 'know' it. Maybe I am too cynical, but I would like to be reassured that the system set up for the DVLA ( which apparently contains a lot of inaccurate data ) cannot ultimately be linked to one that checks whether my TV licence is valid, or what my blood groupis!

Novo
2X

Any mistakes with data leakage asides, I really do hope they get some centralised medical records database up and running soon... The number of times I've been at hospital X, and its taken me a long long time to explain to them medical history etc., when they could have easily accessed it if there were some central records system rahter than the current I guess largely paper based system only a month ago wasted hours goign to see a consultant at hospital... We were late getting in to see him as they had been hunting about for a couple of hours to try and find some X-rays, MRI and CAT scans I'd had done recently at another hospital... Then had to wait whilst they contacted the other hospital and GPs to try and get them faxed through... non of which of course worked so a nice 8 or so hours including travel and waiting about wasted because of a faulty filing system

I am sorry to hear of your trouble 2Legs,

It might have been a faulty person system though, which could occur even with a computer system.

Hope you got sorted in the end

Novo
2 's

Well... Yeh it most probably was a faulty person 'technical issue'.... As far as I could deduce from their mumbled appologies and nicities it was basically a failure of filing the hardcopys of the scans and Xrays and GPs letters correctly at the hospital where that appointment was... at least if it'd been electronic there'd ahve been a better chance it'd gone up properly to start with so could be found... or so one would help.... No not got it sorted, waiting another appointment, expected maybe next year if I'm lucky, though it may be before that, they were being precisely ambigious and vague in a way I highly approved of Mind, doubt my Father will be that happy loosing another days pay when the next appointment for me is... It'd be nice to think they might actually set some money asides from any major PC/database NHS system fund, in order to actually train some staff in how to use it... But I find that idea very hard to imagine

Whatever security systems are in place as regards the software, I think the weak link is those operating it.
I work in the NHS but don't have a passsword to access the patient records/appointments system. However, I am occasionally given access by a colleague in order to help out with admin. PCs may be left logged on in empty rooms. It's this sort of sloppinness combined with unscrupulous people which makes the system vulnerable to abuse.

Having said that, I suspect that the risk of having one's personal medical details available to such abuse is probably minimal compared with the benefits of transferring relevant information between medical practitioners.

That was the point I was making earlier too. It's the people that cause the information releases. When data encryption is used the data is 100% secure from hacking but people get sloppy, greedy, tricked, or are ignorant of the dangers and that's when the information gets out. Here in the U.S. someone "accidentally" posted a thousand peoples private ID numbers (social security numbers they call it) on a public web page. How do you accidentally do that? You don't. Someone just got careless.

I guess, that the 'headlineing' storey as far as the media (most esp the newspapers) was concerned, was being used as a kind of 'just imagine if your medical records got released onto the internet'., or some such... I really can't imagine that for the vast vast majority of people having their medical records say, put up on the net would really do any harm at all. I really wouldn't care much if mine ended up in the 'public domaign'... can't imagine they'd make very interesting reading unless you were a neurology student with a taste for having MRI or CAT scan pics put on your wall Actually... that might look kinda cool... maybe I shoudl see if I can get hold of copies of some of my brain scans... maybe use them as a basis for the pics on the Xmas cards I send out this year Nope can't think of anything in my medical (hospital plus GP plus clinics plus outpatients etc) would give me any cause for concern if they were 'leaked'

True, not all medical records necessarily need to be secret. I posted some of the X-rays of one of my son's broken bones over the years for my relatives to marvel at. However, I can give you one scenario where having your medical records out and about could be a bad thing. If you have had a bad illness, with a potential for future bouts, and you are looking for a new job, you don't want potential employers making their hiring decision on whether or not you will be available as often as the next contestant. I'm sure that there are other situations that would apply as well.

That is a sound point Tiny.

However we are gettin a bit bogged down in the example here. My original point was the desirability of an NHS database and the a national I D database.

Given some of the posts on this thread I am even less enamoured of the national database idea, and ID Cards in general, no matter how 'tight' the technology.

Novo 's

There could be options for a database to be exploited by market forces, insurance analysts or employers if such opportunity arose; but it could also pave the way for earlier recognition of "clusters" of illnesses that would otherwise take years and depend on less amenable resources. It could well lead to swifter action in uncovering and eliminating causes; a pollutant in the water supply or an immigrant pet for instance. That on its own I think would justify the effort. Whether the UK can afford it or run it properly is something else.

Wow, that assumes a lot of work by someone to first identify a problem to watch for and then to periodically examine the data, even if you use automated retrievals. A good idea though. Might as well use the thing for good as well as evil as long as it's around.

I guess it all depends on your level of paranoia how good an idea it is. Personally, I have always subscribed to the point of view that paranoia is nothing but common sense when the whole world is after your arse.

Within the computer industry voices are repeated raised about the way the government has chosen to implement the NHS national IT system - they are however ignored or told to shut up. Even the governments own regularity body has expressed disquiet.

Even with full access to the system, it is hard to get meaningful data for large groups, though a lot can be accessed on an individual basis.

Then again you could stand and read all the files on one of the old porter trollies.