h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This was a major discussion on RTÉ Radio 1 a couple of weeks ago, and I intended to put it here but forgot. My memory of what was said is now imperfect.

As I recall, anti-terrorism legislation in the UK dictates that

1. No foreign national gets a reduced prison sentence for good behaviour;

2. All foreign nationals who leave prison after finishing their time must be detained in an immigration centre while their case is considered for deportation, which may take weeks (and this is the case even if they desire to leave the country).

I believe that the Joe Duffy phone-in show on Radio 1 also stated that this new legislation is affecting mainly Irish immigrants.

Before debating these points, it would be nice to check if I've got the facts right. I haven't a clue where to start looking, but I'll do some Googling tomorrow if I can snatch the time.


People were phoning in who had sons and daughters in Ukonian prisons. One young woman who had lived in Britain for years had been arrested for shoplifting, had served her time, and now wanted to go home to Cavan (I think), but she was being held in a detention centre for immigrants. Another person on her floor had commited suicide recently. It sounded rather nasty.

A young man, also a long term resident of the UK, had been arrested for manslaughter. He was given a fairly short sentence (the man he killed had been assaulting him, and had a weak liver so died unexpectedly), and was expecting to serve only half of it for good behaviour. But, on foot of this new legislation, introduced after his sentencing as a compensation for someone else's incompitance, he is now going to serve the full sentence, which the judge passing sentence probably didn't expect. He's then going to go through the whole immigration detention centre thing.

Storm in a teacup? Or serious human rights problem?

TRiG.

RTÉ = Radio Telifís Éirneann, the Irish national broadcaster.

This is the first time I've started a Forum conversation in yonks.

TRiG.

How do shoplifting and regular violence tie in with anti-terror legislation?

How?; Well they're foreign so they must be terrorist threats.... well according to some fo the tabloid press and what the govn would seemingly like us to believe whilst they flount every and any law for wahtever purpose all in the name of 'protecting us' from the invisible army.... Just when you think the government have sunk as low as they can get in terms of impinging on citizens where they don't need to, or restricting rights to one or other subgroup of the country they go and prove you wrong by doing someting even dumber and more outlandishly criminal...

'Twould help if I spelled their name right:

Radio Telefís Éireann http://www.rte.ie/about/

TRiG.

Well, you remember the fiasco about foreign prisoners being released and then simply disapearing? This was brought in because of that, I think. It's related to anti-terrorism laws, and springs from the same mindset.

TRiG.

Since people aren't released randomly, it would seem that except in the case of crimes where sentences are very short, any necessary deportation hearings, etc could be done before someone is released.

In the case where people are actually convicted of terrorism-related or other serious offences, it would seem fairly easy (and somewhat fairer) to have a default of deportation stated at sentencing, with it being up to the individual to appeal while they are serving their sentence. If they don't appeal quickly enough, deportation should happen immediately on release except possibly where there is fear over someone's chance of surviving after being deported, in which case they may well end up detained indefinitely if considered to be some risk, and if they can't find anywhere else to take them.

You are assuming that the prison service, the courts, and the probabtion service all use a common database, and have access to each others records - they don't.

I find it difficult to contain my moral repugnance at people making a profit from locking people up, when they make a botch of it, and they still get paid, it goes even further.

This government has done more to reduce the liberties and rights of UK citizens than any since Cromwell, whilst all the time presenting it as protecting us.

>1. No foreign national gets a reduced prison sentence for good behaviour;

2. All foreign nationals who leave prison after finishing their time must be detained in an immigration centre while their case is considered for deportation, which may take weeks (and this is the case even if they desire to leave the country).<

1) Wrong. Sentencing provisions and legislation covering the amount of time served, time on licence and the like are all uniform, whatever the nationality of the prisoner. There is no such thing as 'time off for good behaviour' in UK prisons. Bad behaviour may put back your release because it will adversely affect the views of the parole panel, but they cannot bring forward your release date because of good behavior.

2) The necessary paperwork for consideration of deportation is the IM3, and that has to be served by either the Police or Immigration at or before the time of sentencing. The judge will then make a recommendation as to whether deportation should follow the prison sentence. Those that have to wait for *whole*(1) weeks to get a decision are those that choose to fight the deportation order.

In the specific example of the young lady form Cavan, there is a crucial difference to leaving the country voluntarily and being deported. In the case of deportation, the person concerned is barred from returning to the UK. In the case of 'voluntary' retuirn, the person retains the right to return to the UK at any time.

I don't think I need spell out why that is not necessarily desirable from the perpsective of the Police, Immigration Officials and indeed the citizens of the UK.



(1) Whole weeks to wait to hear if a country whose laws you have chosen to break will allow you to remain in their jurisdiction? Pretty generous that they should even give the right of appeal from where I'm standing.

P.S. - what in the name of Bod is UKonian? I'm a little sick of these words like USAnian and the like. It's gibberish.

"P.S. - what in the name of Bod is UKonian? I'm a little sick of these words like USAnian and the like. It's gibberish."

Entirely agree. What's the point? It takes just as long to type as the correct term, so why bother?

Tell me, SWL, what is this "correct term" of which you speak?

TRiG.

Well, I'm sure I didn't misremember the programme that badly, so it must have been an error on the part of those calling in. Perhaps it was corrected the next day, but I don't often listen to Joe Duffy. BBC 7 is my radio station.

I'm sure it was very clear that provisions for early release would be affected by the nationality of the prisoner. Ah well. I'll assume you know what you're talking about, Blues Shark, on the basis that you usually do.

"Those that have to wait for *whole* weeks to get a decision are those that choose to fight the deportation order."

So if, when you're issued with such an order, you decide to just leave, there will be no hassle? Is that what you're saying? Tell me, is there any circumstances whereby you might have to wait while the courts/immigration service/whatever decide whether to issue such an order? Probably not, if it's served at or before sentencing.

Is it possible to accept the deportation order, leave, and then fight remotely for permission to return? I'm sure many people would prefer to do that, especially if they came from somewhere as nearby as this country.

TRiG.

I'm not aware of any reason why deportation shouldn't be immediate if the IM3 was served at sentencing and returning to your country of origin is voluntary under those circumstances.

Though there may be extra paperwork to do. I imagine there is also a duty to inform the country of origin that a known criminal is being deported and the country in question may wish to make it's own provisions, thus delaying the matter.

So far as I know, you have to make the appeal whilst in the UK. Again, not my area of expertise, but I can foresee reasons why you wouldn't want it being done from overseas in any event - ID theft being the most obvious.

I think it might be worth clarifying this point about 'good behaviour' and 'early release'.

In the normal run of events, a serving prisoner is considered for parole after one half of his sentence being served (in the event of a sentence up to four years in length. If the sentence is over four years then the earliest consideration for parole is after 2/3rds of the sentence is served). There is no power for *any* authority to order any form of release earlier than that statutory period which has been set by Parliament, however angelic the prisoner.

Good behaviour may encourage a parole board to grant licence at that earliest stage. Bad behaviour will almost certainly result in your parole being put back and a longer period being served. That is a matter for the Parole Board to deal with on a case by case basis.

With regard to foreign nationals, I have just been chatting to one of our lawyers and we agree on this - there is no legislation in existence in the Uk which effects these rules with regard to foreign nationals - they are eligible for licence in *exactly* the same way as a UK citizen. One of the things that the parole board must be satisfied of when releasing any prisoner is that they have a suitable address to stay at and that they will abide by the terms of the licence granted. This may cause no little problem for foreign nationals as the suitability of addresses is ussually a matter for the police and they can veto any address if they feel it is not suitable.

One of the reasons that we are so sure this must be the case is that any attempt to discriminate between foreign nationals and UK citizens in the way they serve prison sentences and the terms of their release on licence would be a flagrant breach of the ECHR and we all would have heard about that by now if it was the case.

Thanks for clarifying.

when I get tired of gibberish, I say "quit your gibber gabberin, fool"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=skEX1ffoKq0