h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Post 16: "[Unsuitable link removed by Moderator]"

Is that actually the case? Earlier it said that it was pending a decision, so isn't it an Italic who has removed it?
Might be a small thing, but in this great discussion about trust...

That *is* the standard wording for a link removed by the moderators.
I'm not sure I follow *why* the distinction between a link removed by an editor and a link removed by a moderator would make any difference?
The moderators are presumably just doing their job, which in this case, as it now stands, is removing a thread to a non-English language web-site.

But as I see it, it wasn't a moderator who removed it. Are we not to trust the official posts? If that's the case, I better understand why the Beeb don't trust us normal researchers.

Why don't you think a moderator removed it? That *is*, as i said before, the standard wording for a link removed by a moderator.
Or do you think the Editors removed it and are afraid to admit to it?

Hello all,

Here's an official response.

We made the decision to start failing non-English language Postings because people were complaining pretty vehemently about the inconsistencies regarding various moderation decisions, with Researchers feeling that their Postings were being hidden without reason - particularly Postings that were being passed and failed in the same Conversation.

However, the reaction here has made us sit up and think, and I'm sorry if our initial announcement has annoyed anyone; it really wasn't intended to offend. Instead, let's talk about the options, which are:

1. We don't allow any non-English content on h2g2, and simply fail it all. Looks like you don't like this one, and that's fine; we'd be happy to stop automatically failing non-English content right away, as long as we can decide on the best policy.

2. We continue to refer all non-English content, irrespective of whether individual Moderators understand what's being said. In the future we would hope to translate and publish this content, and this would ensure a consistent approach to non-English language content - it *all* gets referred.

3. We continue to refer all non-English content, but where a Moderator does understand content, they pass it if it's otherwise acceptable. This will *by definition* mean inconsistent moderation of non-English content, but it does allow content to appear where possible.

4. We allow non-English content to be published freely. However this means we *have* to translate it at the moderation stage, and we simply cannot resource this at the moment; we've tried a stop-gap solution, and it's proved unworkable. We are hoping to develop tools to enable the Translation Volunteers scheme to go ahead (as Peta has said on site), but until they are there, this is not an option.

Number 4 is the long-term goal, but the question is this: which of the other three options would you rather have? Number 3 has caused us problems because lots of you have complained about the inconsistencies, but you can't have your cake and eat it, and it boils down to inconsistency, or all non-English content is referred automatically.

(The same applies to links to non-English sites, by the way.)

I'm afraid we didn't do the best job of getting across the reasoning behind what we were doing, and we will be more clear and helpful in future.

Hope that's cleared it up a bit - I look forward to all your comments, so we can work out what the best solution is.

Natalie

I don't see any reason why they should be afraid to admit that (except that the rules sucks, but that's not the point). If you read post 21 again, you'll see that the point is that the post earlier was pending moderation, which AFAIK means that it's an Italic that makes the decision.
Ok, the moderator probably removed the link and THEN referred it to the Editors for a decision. Fair enough, forget that I asked, I was just interested.

And to follow up on the issue with the House Rules change, I made that addition but didn't announce it because it wasn't a change to the *rules*, just a clarification to them; all I added was an extension to the list of example sites which we deem 'unsuitable'. It doesn't change a thing; we've always failed links to sites that aren't in English, and all I did was clarify the rules to explain this.

And I only did that because people were complaining that the rules weren't clear... and they now are.

Ottox, fine, I think we were at cross purposes there.
I understand what you are saying now, and such would be my understanding of the rules as well.
I think the two editorial posts cover the rest of the questions pretty thoroughly (though doubtless I'll be in a minority ), so thanks to Natalie and Mark for that.

The Site you removed in post 16 as unsuitable was in Welsh, A British language that enjoys considerable legal protection under English & Welsh law - have you talked to your lawyers? h2g2 offers users the ability to communicate with each other and as I said before find it hard to believe that it is legal to ban Welsh speakers from communicating with each other in there native British language.

And just so you know I'm conntacting my MP over this.

Feel free, HappyDude. We'd love to support Welsh, but don't have the resources, and it would be handy to force us to relocate resources from, say, Community art schemes, or working with Editorial Policy to develop reactive moderation, so that we could support Welsh and all the other languages in Britain.

It's only fair, after all, to use this "considerable legal protection" to ruin one of the few sites in the BBC that is challenging the status quo. Go for it; it's your site, after all.

Now *that's* a depressing thought.

or you could find someone who can translate the few Welsh post that are made, BBC Cymru is full of Welsh speakers.

Yep, but we'd still have to pay for that, HappyDude, and that would mean relocating resources. The BBC is like a massive internal market, and everything must be paid for from our coffers, like it or not.

C'est la vie, but it makes sense internally. Big place, the Beeb.

OK, so if the rule about URLs to 'foreign' sites has been 'unsuitable' all the time, how come I haven't noticed?

Because I'm sure I've posted links now and then, and they've never been moderated - and, like I said in the 'Non-English Language Postings' - I even put one in one of my entries - and it still remained after it had been edited!

And I still recent the wording!

Hi HappyDude,

As far as I know no-one has ever made a posting in Welsh to h2g2 anyway. So isn't this the most incredibly academic discussion?

How's the non-smoking going nowadays, have you still given up? I gave up last year, it's a struggle but it's worth it in the end.

Quick question: I thought the last native speaker of Cornish (ie speaker from birth) died in the 18th Century.

I assume - and am happy to be corrected - that the order of magnitude for number of speakers of British Languages in the UK (ie not Eire) is:

English
Welsh
Scots Gaelic
Irish Gaelic
Lallands - There are almost certainly no native Lallands speakers
Manx - is the IOM in the UK - I know it has various ex-pat statuses
Cornish - I do not think there are any native Cornish speakers



Natalie - your response seemed measured and fair; pointing out that it is up to us as a community.



Mark, your response seemed petulant. Just because you would prefer us to dabble in community art does not mean you can ignore your legal obligations. I would prefer to take a holiday, but I have a legal obligation to pay my car insurance....



a monoglot English Woman called Ben

and given the very low volume of welsh post would it cost that much ?

h2g2 is part of the BBC and as such aimed at a UK audience, now if Johnny Foreigner comes along and takes advantage of this site well good luck to them but there on shaky ground when it comes to complaining about the service offered and if you decide to make them speak English well so be it then... BUT Welsh is a British language not a foreign language and a legally recognized British language at that.

I now withdraw my comment about contacting my MP - I wuz just p****d off at being ignored.

This is for the same reason as for non-English Postings: if a Moderator understands a language (and we don't require this, but it's a handy bonus) then they may pass links to certain sites in that language, and they may use their judgement on places like universities, big companies and so on. Also, sites with English versions (pretty common for bug sites) can be passed, assuming they're otherwise acceptable.

However, this means there have to be inconsistencies, and the whole reason this thing started was because a bunch of Researchers were complaining about the inconsistencies in non-English content/link moderation. We fixed that by changing the policy to ensure consistency, and look what happened...

Like Natalie says, you can't have your cake and eat it. You have to choose between inconsistent but less stringent moderation, or consistent and more stringent moderation. We can't resource any other options in the short term.

I'm sorry you don't like the wording in the rules; I can easily reword them, if you'd like. I still won't announce the change, though; I mean, who'd listen to me if I announced every single word change I ever make to the site? I'd have no friends at all!

Ben the only one that has any legal status under English & Welsh law (under which h2g2 is governed) is Welsh.

"Mark, your response seemed petulant."

Sure was. Intentionally, too.