h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Indian Schools - 'Educating' the Native Americans - A87813642
Author: Florida Sailor Looking at the Swamp! - U235886

While working on another another Entry a question was raised about the origin of a Native American name. While trying to explain way this was so much more difficult that it is in Europe, It occurred to me that this was a subject that belonged in the Guide.

Please leave your comments.



F S

Hi, there. At first, I thought you were going to talk about how Indians educated their kids. I was interested, since I never got an Indian education. My Indian ancestors were incognito, due to the Indian Removal Act. Back then, in order to avoid being sent to Oklahoma, you went around saying the equivalent of 'we are from France'. (Actually, it was 'Dutch'.)

Now, this is a good topic, but I've got a lot of problems with your approach here. The subject is really complex. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

>>The two civilizations had been separated since the stone age and had each established their own cultural heritage and religions.<<

That doesn't sound quite right. Humans crossed the Bering Strait a long time before there was a European civilisation. I think that needs to be worded differently.

>>each group were convinced that their culture held the true meaning of life and must be shared with the rest of the world.<<

Once again, I think that's misleading. I'd try being more specific. Point out that England and Spain both had religious cultures that insisted on 'educating' the 'savages' they encountered. I don't know of anybody else who did this, much. Can you think of other examples? By and large, the French left American Indian cultures alone. The Quakers didn't think the Lenape needed Christianity, being more Christian in their behaviour than the Irish. And I can't remember the Dutch doing it in New Amsterdam. US and Canadian authorities, on the other hand, were responsible for a lot of evildoing in the 19th Century.

>>many others were anxious to learn the secrets of the white man's power.<<

I know that isn't meant to, but it sounds patronising to me. Could we just say, 'many were anxious for their children to acquire this form of knowledge'?

'talkking papers': could you specify who called them that? The original term used by the Cherokee was 'talking leaves'. This, of course, w as before they simply invented their own writing system.

Before you talk about the Indian Removal Act, you should talk about Eastern Woodland Indians, and how their children were educated in the period before 1830. After all, this is about education. And let's be specific about tribes. Just 'Indians' won't cut it. The Cherokee were quite different from the Catawba, for example. Likewise, the Chickasaw, Choctaw, etc. The languages are often mutually unintelligible.

You've ended with the boarding schools and the Code Talkers, but you haven't tied them together, and you don't really have a lot of information on the boarding schools. How many were there? Where? What tribes were affected? What are their stories? How did this affect individual families?

>>The government intended to break this cycle.<<

You haven't backed up this statement. Is there a policy that documents this? Or could the stated - or real - purpose have been different?

All in all, I really think this needs to be broken up into several entries, each one with more specific information.

I'd suggest you start by writing one JUST about the boarding schools in the West. I think I can even find some pictures.

Sorry to be so negative about the entry, but it's a really worthy topic, and we owe it a truly rigorous approach in the Guide.

If you decide to do an entry on the boarding schools, here's a good source of information:

http://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/marr.html

This source names some of the schools, and which tribes attended. It also gives a rundown on how the schools were run, what was taught, and what the daily schedule was like. Pretty hair-raising stuff.

Hi Dmitri, thanks for your well thought out reply, I am going to reply to several of your points here, rather than the Entry as I want to present what I intended before altering the text

>At first, I thought you were going to talk about how Indians educated their kids. I was interested, since I never got an Indian education. My Indian ancestors were incognito, due to the Indian Removal Act. Back then, in order to avoid being sent to Oklahoma, you went around saying the equivalent of 'we are from France'. (Actually, it was 'Dutch'.)

That was why I placed Educating in quotes


>Now, this is a good topic, but I've got a lot of problems with your approach here. The subject is really complex. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Fair enough, my main objective was to point out why so much Native American culture has been lost, rather than an in-depth study of how insidious process it was. There are certainly enough room for both Entries in the Guide.

>>The two civilizations had been separated since the stone age and had each established their own cultural heritage and religions.<<

>That doesn't sound quite right. Humans crossed the Bering Strait a long time before there was a European civilisation. I think that needs to be worded differently.

I am not a disciple of the whole 'land bridge' theory, I have read too many Native creation stories, including those that talk about a great flood and arriving by canoe. Although the 'land bridge' may well be true, I find it a bit too convenient without any proof. This has nothing to do with this Entry however, so let us just drop the whole idea, unless you want to respond to this point as


>>each group were convinced that their culture held the true meaning of life and must be shared with the rest of the world.<<

>Once again, I think that's misleading. I'd try being more specific. Point out that England and Spain both had religious cultures that insisted on 'educating' the 'savages' they encountered. I don't know of anybody else who did this, much. Can you think of other examples? By and large, the French left American Indian cultures alone. The Quakers didn't think the Lenape needed Christianity, being more Christian in their behaviour than the Irish. And I can't remember the Dutch doing it in New Amsterdam. US and Canadian authorities, on the other hand, were responsible for a lot of evildoing in the 19th Century.

As far as I can tell, you are correct. I just didn't want to exclude the others without proof, it is impossible to prove a negative.


>>many others were anxious to learn the secrets of the white man's power.<<

>I know that isn't meant to, but it sounds patronising to me. Could we just say, 'many were anxious for their children to acquire this form of knowledge'?

I am not sure what 'form of knowledge' means. I meant to imply Sailing canoes that could cross the ocean, thunder sticks that could kill from a long way away and strange shets of paper (or leaves) that could pass messages from place to place.

>'talkking papers': could you specify who called them that? The original term used by the Cherokee was 'talking leaves'. This, of course, w as before they simply invented their own writing system.

I have read that term, I will have to look again to establish it as a period or modern term. The Cherokee were certainly one of the most advanced tribes in the adaptation of Western ideas while preserving their own heritage.


>Before you talk about the Indian Removal Act, you should talk about Eastern Woodland Indians, and how their children were educated in the period before 1830. After all, this is about education. And let's be specific about tribes. Just 'Indians' won't cut it. The Cherokee were quite different from the Catawba, for example. Likewise, the Chickasaw, Choctaw, etc. The languages are often mutually unintelligible.

I tried at the opening to imply that the Native Americans were a large diverse population with many languages and cultures. It was the European colonist who tried to put them all in same mould as 'Indians' both for convenience and the similarity to European structures that they were familiar with.

>You've ended with the boarding schools and the Code Talkers, but you haven't tied them together, and you don't really have a lot of information on the boarding schools. How many were there? Where? What tribes were affected? What are their stories? How did this affect individual families?

As you say later the details of the boarding schools can certainly be its own entry. My main intention here is to explain how much of Native American culture has been lost over the centuries, and why.

>>The government intended to break this cycle.<<

>You haven't backed up this statement. Is there a policy that documents this? Or could the stated - or real - purpose have been different?

The link you supplied in your second post gives the answer to this-
Believing that Indian ways were inferior to those of whites, he subscribed to the principle, "kill the Indian and save the man."

I don't see haw this could be more clearly stated short of quoting my own summation.


>All in all, I really think this needs to be broken up into several entries, each one with more specific information.

>I'd suggest you start by writing one JUST about the boarding schools in the West. I think I can even find some pictures.

I agree, that would be the easy approach, but I also wanted to give what lead up to the situation and what the result was.

As to the 'Code Talkers' I intended to show how valuable one small part of Native culture proved to be, and let the reader imagine how many valuable things were lost.

>Sorry to be so negative about the entry, but it's a really worthy topic, and we owe it a truly rigorous approach in the Guide.

I would much rather read a well thought out criticism than mindless praise. I hope you don't mind my detailed response , but I really wanted you to understand ny intention before we start making changes

Post 3


If you decide to do an entry on the boarding schools, here's a good source of information:

http://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/marr.html

This source names some of the schools, and which tribes attended. It also gives a rundown on how the schools were run, what was taught, and what the daily schedule was like. Pretty hair-raising stuff.

An excellent source. I have actually stood in the classrooms of Fort Simcoe (part 3 opening paragraph), much to the consternation of my wife who was sitting at a nearby picnic tale anxious to get to her sister's house, I spent a few hours talking with the interpretive Ranger.

I think we both share the idea that this is a story that must be preserved for the same reason.


F S

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but my criticism of the entry stands.

I think this is too broadly written. It's fine that you have reasons for believing these things. That's very creditable.

But before we put the information in the Guide, we need to make sure other people understand it. It has to be specific, instructive, and not open to misinterpretation.

This isn't there yet.

I still suggest you narrow the topic, and work from there. If you've got first-hand experience of Fort Simcoe - I don't know anything about that area, or those tribes, other than reading Sherman Alexie - then let's get it in there, and educate 'em.