A Conversation for How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Peer Review: A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 1

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

Entry: How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites - A87756006
Author: Florida Sailor - U235886

Here is a collaborative entry I have put together from a recent thread.

F smiley - dolphin S


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 2

Bluebottle

A very enjoyable basis for an entry. A couple of things I would mention are – either explain what the National Trust is, or link to the entry on it (A1011862). Perhaps list other related organisations, such as English Heritage, National Trust for Scotland etc. There are some minor mistakes, such as 'Guides my be' which I assume should be 'may be'.
I must admit that when I read this, I thought that I hope you write about Fort Foster soon!

<BB<


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 3

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

Thanks <BB< I was hoping you would stop by soon, you probably know more about the subject than the rest of us combined. smiley - biggrin If you would like to provide a few quotes I would be glad to include them.

I did actually have a link to national trust, but it was awkwardly in the intro under castles and palaces. I have moved it to the appropriate place and found a couple good site links for the intro (one of them is yours).

I would like to keep this as much as possible an international entry. Listing all the not-for-profits world wide would be enormous. That said, should any others be mentioned in a quote I will add a link if it exists.

I will probably put something together on Foster in the near future, but don't get too excited it was primarily a warehouse. I do link the state site in my 2nd Seminole entry.

I do have a challenge for your area, I was hoping to find something here for HMS Victory or the Portsmouth display area.smiley - cheers

Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 4

You can call me TC

For international - and not too specific - you perhaps should refer to the UNESCO.

If you are thinking of including a few examples, there are various criteria.

There is "The sublime to the ridiculous" (varying in size) i.e. world-famous, huge castles (Versailles springs to mind) and some smaller ones. (Nearest my home in England would be Audley End - small, homely, and a lovely afternoon out for the kids; nearest my home in Germany would be Schwetzingen - although that is perhaps too big - A smaller version of the same style would be Mannheim Electoral palace where we went during the Mannheim meet.)

Or varying in age: You can visit some quite large Stone Age settlements on Malta, or the South American civilisations. In our part of the world there are some excellently reconstructed Roman villas, and museums almost in every town in the Western world showing life through the centuries up to the 1950's or 1960's even.

In fact, on reflection - giving examples is opening up too much of a smiley - canofworms But you see what I mean about variety becoming confusing and frustrating.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that you should put some thought into which site you visit even before you go into the preparation and other steps described in the entry.


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 5

You can call me TC

OK. Now I'm looking at this from a subeditor's POV. Please don't be discouraged by the amount I've written. This is still in the embryo stage, in a way. Having said that, it is a brilliantly organised collection of posts in the thread, well done!

1. In your opening sentence, you actually cover admirably what I said in my post above in far more unnecessary words. So forget some of my post above!

2. " a long planed holiday overseas with many years planing" - two "n"s please.

3. This might be too nitpicky, but the sentence "Most sites offer tours for a modest price." is possibly a bit too specific at this point.


4. "...or simply provide a placard at significant points along the tour, many botanical gardens" - a semi-colon instead of the comma after "tour" - or bullet points for the whole list.

5. " and nature walks use the later method". - smiley - biro "this last method. (or system, or format...)

6. "The speeches given can be either a well rehearsed speech" Perhaps "speech" is not quite the right word. Maybe "talk" or even just "explanations"

7. "None of these methods are best" - Actually, it is "none..is best" but only super-pedants will notice.

8. "after visiting a few historic sights you will decide which you prefer." Actually, I don't think you can. These things vary so incredibly much. After visiting a few sights, you might work out what questions to ask (how good is the guide's english? Can I choose which sections to listen to on this Audio Guide machine? How long does the tour take? Is it suitable for children?), but if you take an audio guide at one place, and it works, and you like the commentary given, it doesn't mean that somewhere else the audioguide will be just as good.

9. "It should be noted that the guides may be paid staff, interns or volunteers interested in the site and time period presented." Why should it be noted? Maybe the sentence could include something like "As a visitor, you should bear this in mind."

A volunteer may not be quite so knowledgeable but will make up for this in enthusiasm. An intern may not have sufficient knowledge or enthusiasm. A paid member of staff had better damn know what they're talking about.

10. "Guides may be dressed ..." - this runs straight on from the sentence before. Maybe the section "What will I See?" can be split up into smaller paragraphs.

11. "Deciding Which Sites to Visit" Again, this is my personal taste, but I like smaller subsections - be it bullet points, subheaders, or just more division into paragraphs.

12. "auto-mobile" - the hyphen shouldn't be there, should it?

13. The sentence reads better if you leave out "or rely on public transport(ation)." In British English, that would be "by car or by public transport".

14. "Another import point to consider" - smiley - biro importANT

15. "Probably the most important point is what are you, and even more importantly smiley - biro what smiley - biro those visiting with you are interested in? " This does not require a question mark.

16. Quotes please in quotation marks so that the subeditor can identify them and use the BLOCKQUOTE tag. Better still, format them as blockquotes yourself, if you have time, and know how.

17. These quotes could also be sorted into topics such as practicalities (opening times, disabled access) and what kind of guide to use, etc.

18. "A good informed question" - I think you are quoting yourself here, so you are allowed to change it. Either "A well-informed question" or "A good, informed, question"

19. "Many sites have special events throughout the year" Just a hunch, but in my experience, I think "throughout the year" is rather too much for most sites!

20. "While some people enjoy the added experience, others find it a distraction." Maybe you could say "others find the larger crowds drawn by these events detract from the enjoyment of the visit" - but that's a very personal comment from me.

21. "Security is always a concern at historical sites." As a guide yourself, perhaps you could emphasise this point a bit more. Add something to the effect that as a visitor, you should really keep to the securitiy regulations and not climb on the ruins or leave the carpeted route through the palace if you are specifically asked to, and you should warn your children about what they are allowed to do and not to do. After all, if you do keep to the rules and don't hold up the whole group by setting off alarms or knocking over vases, it does what this entry is trying to do: Get the most out of your visit.

(Mum will now shut up on that subject) smiley - winkeye

22. "I'm one of those rude people who has no concerns about leaving a guided tour if I so fancy." Mala covers the security aspect of this, but how much can a guide change his plan and talk more about something that one or a small group within the group are interested in?

23. "Tate Britain charges £5:00" Be wary of quoting prices. You might have to have the entry updated annually to keep it up-to-date.


24. Things to Do : Not sure if this is a quote, or your own words, but I would add inverted commas here: "At some sites the rule is "look but don't touch!", while others ...".

25. "the most of thier gardens/landscapes" - I think you're allowed to correct spelling mistakes/typos in quotes.

26. "I volunteer at a re-created Second Seminole War fort" First person is not usual in entries, perhaps you can change it to "This researcher", or "one researcher"...

27. "high, A store-house" - Lower case "a"!

28. "through the complex explaining" comma after "complex"

29. "should the guide refuse just repeat" - comma after "refuse"

30. "No one is getting rich as a tour guide, including the paid staff." Would you like to replace "including" with "not even" -there seems to be a mix of positives and negatives here.

31. "I will leave the answers to the reader." I'm not sure you should do this in an entry?




smiley - popcorn

I haven't done a comprehensive trawl like this since I was a subeditor. Please don't be discouraged. It really was an amazing feat, editing that thread together in such a short space of time and making sense of it all!


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 6

Bluebottle

UNESCO and their list of World Heritage Sites are certainly worth mentioning, as they cover and protect what are considered to be the world's greatest historical sites (although they do have some odd choices in there too). Getting World Heritage Status can be a very long, drawn out process. Portsmouth Harbour, the Solent and the north coast of the Isle of Wight are currently bidding to become a World Heritage Site.

In Britain there are various organisations that look after historical places. The largest are two charities and four government departments. The charities are the National Trust (which covers England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and the National Trust for Scotland. Essentially they own houses, castles etc that have been given 'to the nation' for charity.
Four similar organisations look after historical properties that are owned by the Government. These are English Heritage, CADW (Wales), Historic Scotland and The Northern Ireland Environment Agency (which looks after both historic and natural sites, like the National Trust). The Historic Housing Association is an association which allows people to visit houses and historic sites which are still in individual private ownership. All of these allow annual membership, which allow you to visit all the sites after paying a membership fee.

In addition to these national organisations there are several local ones, with historic sites owned by the local councils in which they're located, in addition to historic sites owned by individuals.

Portsmouth Historic Dockyard has far more than just HMS Victory. It has the Royal Naval Museum and Action Stations, HMS Warrior (A538030) and Mary Rose (A894161), with many other museums such as the D-Day Museum, Southsea Castle, Fort Nelson (Royal Armouries), Fort Brockhurst, Royal Marines Museum and the Submarine Museum nearby.

<BB<


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 7

You can call me TC

As well as the National Trust, there is also English Heritage - is there an equivalent in Scotland/Wales/Ireland?

Now I come to think of it, as obvious as it is that we need organisations like that, there is no such thing in Germany. At least, if there is, it's not a household name. If it's not UNESCO protected, it's up to Friends' Societies and the local council to maintain and run these places. And - as you can imagine, Germany has loads.


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 8

Peanut

forgive me smiley - grovel

I have a tiny mind that is not for peer review but TC's point 10

Guides may be dressed... hope so specially if it is chilly smiley - brr

I'm impressed how you pull together a thread like that FloridaSailor smiley - dolphin


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 9

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

UNESCO.
A30652544


OK. Now I'm looking at this from a subeditor's POV. Please don't be
discouraged by the amount I've written. This is still in the embryo stage, in a
way. Having said that, it is a brilliantly organised collection of posts in the
thread, well done!

1. In your opening sentence, you actually cover admirably what I said in my post above in far more unnecessary words. So forget some of my post above!

<added a few more types of sites (without links) I don't want the links to be overbearing.

1a added a few sponsoring organization types linked UNESCO.

2. " a long planed holiday overseas with many years planing" - two "n"s please.


3.This might be too nitpicky, but the sentence "Most sites offer tours for a modest price." is possibly a bit too specific at this point.
<changed "tours" to entry.


4."...or simply provide a placard at significant points along the tour, many botanical gardens" - a semi-colon instead of the comma after "tour" - or bullet points for the whole list.
<changed to semi-colon

5." and nature walks use the later method". - "this last method. (or system, or format...)
actually the word I intended was latter, but last also works

6. reworded

7. "None of these methods are best" - Actually, it is "none..is best" but only
super-pedants will notice.


8. "after visiting a few historic sights you will decide which you prefer."
Actually, I don't think you can. These things vary so incredibly much. After
visiting a few sights, you might work out what questions to ask (how good is
the guide's english? Can I choose which sections to listen to on this Audio
Guide machine? How long does the tour take? Is it suitable for children?), but
if you take an audio guide at one place, and it works, and you like the
commentary given, it doesn't mean that somewhere else the audioguide will be
just as good.

reworded

9. "It should be noted that the guides may be paid staff, interns or volunteers
interested in the site and time period presented." Why should it be noted?
Maybe the sentence could include something like "As a visitor, you should bear
this in mind."

A volunteer may not be quite so knowledgeable but will make up for this in
enthusiasm. An intern may not have sufficient knowledge or enthusiasm. A paid
member of staff had better damn know what they're talking about.
<Worked into a bit more, hope I didn't overdo

10. "Guides may be dressed ..." - this runs straight on from the sentence before.
Maybe the section "What will I See?" can be split up into smaller paragraphs.
<added break

11. "Deciding Which Sites to Visit" Again, this is my personal taste, but I like
smaller subsections - be it bullet points, subheaders, or just more division into
paragraphs.
<most of this section is BLOCKQUOTES on the same subject, I would rather not break them up
<Added subheader on focusing research

12. "auto-mobile" - the hyphen shouldn't be there, should it?
<My UK spell checker insisted, I didn't think it looked right either

13. The sentence reads better if you leave out "or rely on public transport
(ation)." In British English, that would be "by car or by public transport".
<changed, I think transport/transportation is UK/US thing

14. "Another import point to consider" - importANT


15. "Probably the most important point is what are you, and even more
importantly what those visiting with you are interested in? " This does not
require a question mark.


16. Quotes please in quotation marks so that the subeditor can identify them
and use the BLOCKQUOTE tag. Better still, format them as blockquotes
yourself, if you have time, and know how.
<Actually all quotes are in BLOCKQUOTE, just did a count there are 30. Do I sill need the marks, I assume single?

17. These quotes could also be sorted into topics such as practicalities (opening
times, disabled access) and what kind of guide to use, etc.
<I am trying not to break up the quotes too much

18. "A good informed question" - I think you are quoting yourself here, so you
are allowed to change it. Either "A well-informed question" or "A good,
informed, question"


19. "Many sites have special events throughout the year" Just a hunch, but in
my experience, I think "throughout the year" is rather too much for most sites!


20. "While some people enjoy the added experience, others find it a
distraction." Maybe you could say "others find the larger crowds drawn by these
events detract from the enjoyment of the visit" - but that's a very personal
comment from me.
<reworded slightly from the comments sometimes it the crowd, sometimes it is the extra "entertainment" Not my view, but I'm biased

21. "Security is always a concern at historical sites." As a guide yourself,
perhaps you could emphasise this point a bit more. Add something to the effect
that as a visitor, you should really keep to the securitiy regulations and not
climb on the ruins or leave the carpeted route through the palace if you are
specifically asked to, and you should warn your children about what they are
allowed to do and not to do. After all, if you do keep to the rules and don't hold
up the whole group by setting off alarms or knocking over vases, it does what
this entry is trying to do: Get the most out of your visit.

(Mum will now shut up on that subject)
Added paragraph at the end of the section


23. "Tate Britain charges £5:00" Be wary of quoting prices. You might have to
have the entry updated annually to keep it up-to-date.
<added time date

24. Things to Do : Not sure if this is a quote, or your own words, but I would
add inverted commas here: "At some sites the rule is "look but don't touch!",
while others ...".


25. "the most of thier gardens/landscapes" - I think you're allowed to correct
spelling mistakes/typos in quotes.


26. "I volunteer at a re-created Second Seminole War fort" First person is not
usual in entries, perhaps you can change it to "This researcher", or "one
researcher"...
used one of the contributors, they can guess which one

27. "high, A store-house" - Lower case "a"!


28. "through the complex explaining" comma after "complex"


29. "should the guide refuse just repeat" - comma after "refuse"

30. "No one is getting rich as a tour guide, including the paid staff." Would you
like to replace "including" with "not even" -there seems to be a mix of positives
and negatives here.

31. "I will leave the answers to the reader." I'm not sure you should do this in
an entry?
<Why not? in some cultures it is expected, in others it could be a insult putting
the guide in a subservient role. I do not see it as a yes or no answer. I think the
list of possible reasons to tip as quite valid, and points we should always
consider them.
<I did mention culture as a consideration. In my experience in the US tipping
guides individually is almost unheard of while a "tip jar" is often provided with the
tips going to the site.

Thanks for all the input, that is what Peer Review is for. Hope you don't mind the lengthy reply, I thought it better to keep comment and answer in tact for both of us.

smiley - cheers

F smiley - dolphin S


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 10

You can call me TC

I don't mind the lengthy reply at all - I am flattered that you read the lengthy comments!

Maybe another time though, if you only add you could just say something like "Nos 1 - 6: " to shorten it or you'll frighten all the other posters off the thread!!

On No. 20, I see I misconstrued that paragraph on first reading.

And as for No. 31 - you point out quite eloquently that the answer regarding tips depends on the local culture and customs etc. My point was that an Entry in the EG should be informative. So if the visitor has to decide for themselves whether to tip or not, as you say, you can present him with the criteria he can use to make this decision.

Now I think about it, when I have been on a guided tour, I usually copy what the others in the group are doing - especially if they are from the country that the site is in.

smiley - run I'm off to have another read of the entry, now. If I don't post any more, I have gone to bed smiling at a job well jobbed, thanks to Florida Sailor.


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 11

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

Added Bluebottle's comments, I hope I sorted them correctly. If I were writing this as a solo entry, I would try much harder to keep all like points in a single section. In this one I am trying to keep the view-points of each researcher as a cohesive observation, even if we cross headers occasionally. Without identifying each individual poster with each quote, which I feel would distract greatly from the entry, I feel this is the best way to give every one's point of view. I was once told that after you show you understand all the rules, you are allowed to break them occasionally.
smiley - cheers
F smiley - dolphin S


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 12

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

TC When I do a review of this sort I open the entry in side by side windows. By including the comment before the you can "yes that is exactly what I meant, or smiley - facepalm he didn't get it.

F smiley - dolphin S


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 13

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

Bluebottle;

I did not mean to snub your reply, but T.C. had me rather busy last night. I have long been aware of both Mary Rose and HMS Warrior, your entries on both are fine, but they focus on the ships, not the current display. My personal interest is in 19th century sail. What I really would have liked to have found is an edited entry (I believe we must soon learn to sat "Approved Entry"-I peeked) on visiting the shipyard today, for a link. A visit has long been a dream or mine, not likely to happen any time soon. On a side note I visited USS Constitution in Boston, MA in 1975. The story is far to long to get into here, maybe something for a future Post. At this moment I am focused on this entry, and the one on fever. While it is impossible to link all. or even a very few of the available sites, I might find a way of slipping one I selfishly find of personal interest. smiley - biggrin

Thanks for all your efforts here.

F smiley - dolphin S


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 14

Bluebottle

Don't worry – I don't feel snubbed. Feel free to include, ignore or change anything that I've said. You're right though – it definitely deserves an article. (On a side note I visited USS Constitution in Boston, MA in 1989 – I was 9. I'd love to go back one day now I can appreciate it more.)

Incidentally, the related conversation is here: F19585?thread=8292400

<BB<


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 15

Gnomon - time to move on

This is a great Entry, Florida Sailor. With some extra work, it will have no problem being accepted into the Guide.

There are a number of typos, spelling mistakes and places where the punctuation could be improved, but I'm not going to list them, because Peer Review is not the place for such nitpicking. The sub-editor can sort them without any input from you.

It is normal to put the actual quotations in italics, so you can put and around them rather than just the bare blockquote tags. If you don't want to bother, the sub-editor will do this for you.

The handling of the quotations requires a bit more work by you. Firstly,

"This entry is based on a thread at Ask h2g2 and contains many comments from other researchers."

Remember that the Readers of h2g2 Entries are people who never look at much except the Edited Guide and never comment, so they probably won't know what Ask h2g2 is, or a thread for that matter. I'd prefer something like:

"We've gathered together facts and opinions from lots of h2g2 Researchers to make up this Guide to visiting Historical Sites."

The first quotation "Of course, it depends on the type of building you are visiting" is just repeating what you said in the previous paragraph, so I'd edit the paragraph to include Hadrian's Wall, then leave out the quotation.

"Actually, the best thing is probably "...
-- this section reads like a conversation. I don't think we want to present a debate in our Entry. You can present two conflicting opinions if you want, but leave out the phrases where one Researcher is arguing with another.

So in this section, you can presnt the opinion that the best time to go is on an organised event day, and also the opinion that this is the worst time.

The two quotes about security are rather confusing unless you put an unquoted sentence between them explaining:

"Of course, this may not be entirely true."

or something of that sort.

Another quote that looks odd out of context is this:

"I agree with most of the above except the guided tour - I hate those and you get dragged away from things you're most interested in."

Since it's been lifted from the conversation, it's not clear what "most of the above" refers to. You could rephrase this as:

"I hate those [guided tours] and you get dragged away from things you're most interested in."

The two quotations about pro-aristocrat propaganda are out of place. Firstly, they're in the Things to Do section, when they really are part of the Tour section, I think. Secondly, the second one is an answer to the first, so again it looks like a debate rather than presenting opinions. Change the second one around so that it doesn't repeat the first one.

Read through the whole thing again, thinking like someone looking for advice, and see do any of the quotations look too much like eavesdropping on other people's conversations.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some advice on choice of words and phrasing:

at least hundreds, if not thousands -- There are certainly thousands. It seems odd to say hundreds.

a long planed holiday overseas with many years planning -- could you rephrase this to avoid the repetition of "planned". At the moment it reads that you've planned it for a long time and have spent many years planning it.

"I will leave the answers to the reader" -- since this is not presented as a quotation but as the Guide's view, it is slightly jarring. Up to this point, the indented sections have been used for the personal views. It would be better to put is in a more neutral form:

"The answers are left to the reader"


Thanks for all your work on this!

smiley - oksmiley - booksmiley - galaxy


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 16

Z

As an entry on 'Hobbies' in PR during May this entry is eligible for the May Create Challenge, and I've put it on the 'Roll of Honour' at A87756475


A87756006 - How to Enjoy Visiting Historical Sites

Post 17

Florida Sailor Back From Havana, Cuba

In answer to Gnomon's comments I have conducted a fairly major re-write. There a a few places where the feeling of conversations still slips through, although I have tried to keep them all in the context and in the spirit of a multi-researcher guide. If I have trod too hard on anyone's quote smiley - sorry but I want the best guide entry we can compile. I will not try to reply to all Gnomon's comments, only to let the revised version stand, or undertake what revision is still necessary.

Let me thank again all who have made this effort possible by their early contributions, and not to any less degree those who are contributing here to improve it.

F smiley - dolphin S


Congratulations - Your Entry has been Recommended for the Edited Guide!

Post 18

h2g2 auto-messages

Your Guide Entry has just been picked from Peer Review by one of our Scouts, and is now heading off into the Editorial Process, which ends with publication in the Edited Guide. We've moved this Review Conversation out of Peer Review and to the entry itself.

If you'd like to know what happens now, check out the page on 'What Happens after your Entry has been Recommended?' at EditedGuide-Process. We hope this explains everything.

Thanks for contributing to the Edited Guide!


Congratulations - Your Entry has been Recommended for the Edited Guide!

Post 19

lil ~ Auntie Giggles with added login ~ returned


Well done, FS!! smiley - applausesmiley - bubbly


lil xx


Congratulations - Your Entry has been Recommended for the Edited Guide!

Post 20

U168592

For all involved, this Entry has been subbed here: A87761587

You may notice quite a few changes. Please comment here if anything glaring appears in read through.

It will be returned to the Editors for inclusion in the Approved Guide at the end of this week.

Matt


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