h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh dear. Thread bloat again? I lost it not too long after the announcement. Will I lose it again?

Multilingual hootoo thread here: F20154027?thread=8232389

B

>> The shift from researcher to writer is a really interesting one: personally I think it is more inclusive, allowing people to write opinion pieces, reviews, anecdote, humour, etc. But I accept that "researcher" is unique to h2g2 and should probably be the term of choice.

I don't particularly like the change from researcher to writer. Researcher is the more inclusive term. A writer is restricted to producing text information. But researchers can and do perform all types of important fact- and fiction-gathering, whether textual or audiovisual information. One of the most important things that can be done for the advancement of human knowledge is debunking false notions or exaggerations through fact-checking.

Even if the submission is all in text, such as the State of Jefferson entry currently accepted for EG publication, there is also the other vital part of research that my co-researcher Amy P performed. She compiled lists of links for me to follow and read, and she pestered me non-stop for two years to write that entry.

Regarding the terms Approved and Edited, how about the term Published? Publishing is a more accurate description of what is happening, that is, preparing and issuing researchers' works so as to make them generally known.

HN

I don't think it matters *that* much. But I do think the concept of 'researcher' is pretty integral to the whole idea of h2g2. I wouldn't want to chuck it out.

I think there are several issues here:

1. what aspects of h2g2 culture do we want/need to retain post-sale? Language is part of a larger conversation on h2g2 culture.

2. if we do want/need to change some names, is there a good reason, and what should those changes be? Can we consider changes in the light of the need to retain h2g2 culture?

3. formal and informal language. What gets written into documents and eventually italics' created A pages will influence how language is used by the community in general.


I also like researcher because of its history, and because I like researching. People can be researchers without involvement with the EG - lots of research goes on in the debate threads. I also found it much easier to call myself a researcher than a writer when I first joined.

So for instance while I understand what Rod is saying about member, I still think researcher is a better word because it connects us into the core of the place historically/culturally.

Maybe researcher is what everyone is who joins (but what about those pesky openID 'commenters'? ), and writers are people who are active in the EG and The Post? Researcher won't apply to many of the people writing once the EG broadens.


"comment'.. I can understand Ben using that term for a document that's being used by non-hootooers alot. I'd not like to see the term used generally on hootoo. This is one of those cultural things. The core difference between here and other online formats is that we have a range of ways of interacting (it's what enables such a great community IMO). If commenting is what happens on blogs, it shows that blogs are a reactive process for the non-blogger. We can comment on someone else's blogpost but we can't start our own post. On h2g2 we can do both, and it's why I like it here so much - we can start a thread on *any* page onsite.

I take part in conversations on blogs, but they're of a different kind than here because the blog owner controls the intitiating of all topics.

It seems like a small thing, but that's how cultural loss happens often, continual loss of the small things.


Not sure about Edited/Approved. Published makes sense.


>>
Rest assured that no one would dare make a big name change without a consensus among the community.
<< Jordan

Good to hear. I think we also need to watch for how changes are creeping in too.

isn't this all rather moot untill we find out who the new owner is????

or do you know something we don't??

"It seems like a small thing, but that's how cultural loss happens often, continual loss of the small things.

I think we also need to watch for how changes are creeping in too."

Well, I don't think we need to be quite so protective of our current culture. Cultural change happens gradually and naturally. If future generations of h2g2ers prefer a different word, then I have no problem with their using it. We should remember that h2g2 culture has changed immensely since 1999. In the time I've been here (since late 2002) the culture has shifted enormously in many ways.

I think the real question is one of "top-down" and "bottom-up" change. Language and culture are something that generally work flow from the bottom up. People think of new memes and ideas (such as calling the editors "Italics" or nighthoover or the phrasing "Elvising") and they spread rapidly. That's natural. Maybe someday, some of the things we're talking about, such as the term "researcher" will disappear as new generations are drawn to a different term.

What I think you're worried about is "top-down" change - that is, change imposed on the community by future owners/future editors/whoever. For instance, if a new owner came in and removed all traces of Douglas Adams and HHGG. That would be a massive cultural change, which would be unnatural.

I'm hopeful that whatever ownership structure takes over the site will be community directed to some extent, so that the culture of h2g2 can evolve naturally.

There's a third kind: "outside-in" (aka cultural colonisation). We see it in NZ alot with commerce ensuring that we have massive amounts of US television and (until recently) relatively little NZ television. So we hear/see US stories (along with their cultural norms) far more than our own, and this translates into a loss of NZ culture. Same thing with music. The reason we're not a US cultural colony is because we've taken some specific actions to ensure that the things that are uniquely NZ are protected and nurtured. This allows for the natural change you talk about while also retaining the things that are important.

I'm more concerned about that than 'top-down'. Top down is more visible and easily addressed.

Hmmm. How do you foresee something like that happening?

##we've taken some specific actions to ensure that the things that are uniquely NZ are protected##

shortland street??????

Shortland St aka NZ's actors' school


Jordan, one example would be the use of @ in conversations. It's a convention from Twitter, it makes sense that people who tweet might want to use it here because it's easy, but for people that don't do twitter it can be annoying (I don't like it because the @ symbol is big enough to come across as shouting, and I was raised not to talk at people). To what extent it would affect h2 culture I don't know (the main issue, apart from my annoyance, is that for people that don't do twitter, the culture of twitter is being imported and not everyone where may be able to understand what that is). It's interesting that it doesn't seem to have gained much traction here although it still happens a bit. There were some conversations about it in Ask a while ago.

Another example would be the use of txtspeak. Hootoo has been pretty good at not allowing texting culture to become too dominant here. That was something that we *did*, rather than just allowing the natural change to happen.

I gave the example about 'comment' vs 'post' earlier in this thread.

I'm not suggesting that we have to control these things absolutely. Just that it bears thinking about and being aware of what we want. We do have some choices.

This is clearly something you've spent some time thinking about, and it's never been a big worry to me, so I'm very interested.

I must have missed the texting culture war - not unlikely, as I was on hiatus for a few years, and because I never wandered to the txtspk corners of the site. What was done?

Moreover, is there anything specifically that can be done to protect h2g2 culture? (other than vigilance and perhaps defining h2g2 culture)

is there anything specifically that can be done to protect h2g2 culture?

if the majority of new users under the new owners start to use txtspk there is not a lot we can do, we either adapt or retreat to our non txtspk enclaves and watch our numbers dwindle

darwin in action, red in tooth and claw

> there is not a lot we can do,<

No that's rolling over on your back and saying 'tickle me'..or as some might say showing the white flag.

If someone or a few start doing it a lot, I'd explain a bit about h2g2 traditions..and say we are quite proud of our culture..and explain a bit about why we like it.

Then if in a week or so these same people carried on, I'd just say well I'm ignoring you from now on..(and I don't need a childish and m**nic 'ignore button' to do that..like you get on some ten a penny sites that mean no meaningful discussion can take place because various people might be on 'ignore'. I hope to god we *never* bring that in.

Obviously it may well be a King Canute scenario..but saying there's not a lot ..we can do is surrender talk.

(kea I know I said I'd try to stay away from these discussions..and I have tried..but it's the early hours and I'm on my vodka and coke again.. ).

I took breaks in the pestering

I prefer "Researcher"--after all, lurking is research, too.

As far as Edited/Approved/Published, I don't really have a preference, but I do like the distinction between an entry and an Entry.

I think vigilance (or even just awareness) and defining or understanding what h2g2 culture is is important. (in NZ European descendants got challenged by Maori to understand what their culture is, before that it was assumed and often invisible).

The txtspeak resistance thing seemed fairly natural over time, no big overt campaigns. People just spoke out against people using it and usually it stopped. I think the digibox thing prompted some of that because it was harder for digibox users to type as full as computer users.

I think we are already reasonably good at protecting and nurturing the culture here. I guess with the sale I see the potential for there to be many changes in short spaces of time and it's good to be prepared for that.


Taff, nature (and thus evolution) works around cooperation as much as aggression. But hootoo isn't part of nature in that sense, and not subject to the processes of biological evolution

Anyway, if lots of newbies start using txtspeak, they'll get told off

##No that's rolling over on your back and saying 'tickle me'..or as some might say showing the white flag. ##

at the moment we are safe due to Beeb rules, txtspk can be seen as a non standard english language, if the new owners allow txtspk and more new users, use it, then txtspk would become the norm, the site would be seen to be evolving and adapting to external pressures, unlike what has happend under the Beeb

That's a good argument against an ignore button. Do ignore buttons allow bad behaviour to gain an ascendancy if there are enough people engaged in the behaviour?


Vodka and coke? Are you crazy? Vodka and

I was under the impression that it was primarily the community that put the kibosh on txtspeak, not the moderators or the Eds.

##if lots of newbies start using txtspeak, they'll get told off##

as i keep pointing out, its all down to the new owner,

if we keep telling off the txtspkrs, they could complain to the owners that they were being bullied,

untill we know who owns h2g2 and what the new rules are, we may as well be arguing with smoke