h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: The subtext of Queen's "'39" - A724042
Author: Guran - U186104

Here's a fairly detailed look at one of Queen's earlier and quirkier songs - and a bit of backyard physics thrown in, just for jolly!

(I've included a link to the best of the "time dilation" entries in the Guide, but (a) I feel that that entry has inadequacies in its explanation, and (b) this entry doesn't uses a description to illustrate something else, so I don't think it's really covering the same ground.)

Looking through the lyrics of the song, it seems fairly obvious that it is a case of time dilation, as you have said. I haven't had a chance to read through the article in detail yet, though.

A few things that will need to be changed:

Firstly and most importantly, Edited Guide Entries can not be written in the first person, with "I think" and "I like" in them. You will have to rewrite to get rid of any references to I and me.

The example of two clocks, one at the top and one at the bottom of a mineshaft, is a bad one. Einstein's other Relativity theory, the General one, says that clocks close to large objects such as the earth will be slowed down due to the effects of gravity, so this effect cancels out the difference in speed to some extent. Better to leave this example out. If you want more evidence of time dilation, you could mention the sub-atomic particles which are generated by cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere. Because of the huge speed at which they travel, they last longer before decaying than they would if they were at rest. Their life has been extended because time slows down for them.

Your footnote about cars travelling towards each other is much too big to be a footnote. Make it into a paragraph in the article or leave it out.

It is also wrong. The two cars will not appear to be approaching each other at the speed of light. There is a formula for calculating what the relative speed will appear to be, and it will be less than the speed of light. I can't remember the formula off hand, but I'm sure you'll be able to find it.

Well, I don't know about all the physics stuff but I reckon this is a brilliant entry. I love "'39" too but never really listened to the words with more than passing singalong intent (I had a vague idea that "'39" was 1939 and the war and all that, for some reason). Pleased to be put right. Excellent stuff. (Has Brian May never commented on the meaning of the song by-the-way?)

Thus is fantastic!

Unfortunately I can't see it getting into the guide.

I have to say that this is a case where having almost the complete lyrics of the song in the entry is both essential (because you just have to analyse it word-for word) and almost certainly impossible (because Brian May has not been dead for the required 70 years for the copyright to expire).

If you can find a way to avoid this, I would suggest a few minor points, which of course you are welcome to take or leave as you wish.

1) The people on earth are as old to the space-crew as the crew are to the Earth-bound inhabitants. The difference is that the crew have accelerated to near light speed & back down again. This is what causes them to be younger relative to the earthlings. You don't need to explain why (I can't even remember) but you should probably mention it.

2) Probably the clearest demonstration how a fixed light speed means that speeds are not addative close to the limit is to consider a lamp being held on a car, or similar moving at close to the speed of light. The weird thing being that the light from the lamp moves at light-speed both as viewed from the car, and as viewed from the road.

3) I think you would be clearer including less explanation of relativity if possible. I found it quite difficult to follow and I used to understand some of this stuff! I think if you include

"In our usual experience time and space are absolute while speed is a relative thing: how fast something is perceived to be moving depends on how fast you yourself are moving. But as one approaches light speed, it is speed that becomes an absolute quantity, and therefore space and time must become relative! "

You will lose almost everyone who doesn't all ready know pretty much what you are talking about. I would consider:

"Normally we measure speed in terms of a fixed distance in a fixed time. Because when you move really fast the maximum speed is fixed, you have to measure distance and time against a fixed speed instead"

If you can cut down on the technical words (& I would count "relative & absolute among these) as far as possible then this will help massively.

4) If you can bring yourself to just state that relatavistic effects on time have been proven & lose the whole section on atomic clocks then that might help you keep your audience. (I know you are probably a good scientist/mathematician & like to justify everything but you don't really need to for this). I think the first demonstration was the aberration of the orbit of Mercury due to it's high speed close to the sun, ironically enough.

Anyway, I hope you can find a way to get this in the guide because it is one of the most interesting entries I have ever read. I'm off now to dig out the song!

Ugi

The disturbance of the orbit of Mercury was nothing to do with its speed. It doesn't go that fast. It was caused by the sun's gravity and is explained by Einstein's other theory, the General theory, so it is not relevant here.

Oh, Our maths tutor told us that it was, but I'll happily bow to your knowledge of this one Gnomon. I was never an expert & I'm certainly not now.

I liked it very much! After reading to the bottom and re-reading the lyrics, they suddenly did make sense

Of course, the first person style needs to go. But there's nothing against quoting all the lyrics here because they are *discussed* in depth (as opposed to short witty comments or nothing at all) and on a line-per-line basis (or somesuch). IMHO you can avoid the hassle with details of relativity by keeping it on a more general level.

Thank you all for your comments - it looks like I have a bit of re-writing to do.

On the topic of copyright, I was reliably informed by the H2G2 feedback people that the treatment I've given the lyrics is allowable.

Accept the point about depth of discussion on physics matters - the line between accessibility and thoroughness is a tough one to pick, but on reflection I agree it could be trimmed. Thanks also, Gnomon, for the corrections.

Can I ask that further comment (other than general approval!!) be held over till I notify that I've revised the entry? Such advice will appear below when that occurs. Thanks muchly! You're a valuable crowd to have review one's writing!

Okay, a revised text has now been loaded up. Gnomon and Ugi, thanks for your helpful suggestions - some I've used more explicitly than others, but I think the overall effect is a much trimmer entry. Would it be appropriate to add you two to the researcher list?

This looks good.

A few points of detail:

The "'39" in the title looks confused because of all the quotations. Perhaps change it to just '39.

"evidence in the lyric" should be "evidence in the lyrics"

Change double quotes " to single quotes ' throughout, as stated in the Guidelines.

In your lyrics, you put quotes around the first line of each verse. Any reason for this?

For the Earth is old and grey - this is evidence that it is Planet Earth that they are returning to.

Little darlin' we'll we away - there seems to be a misprint here

Oh so many years have gone though I'm older than a year - can you check the lyrics very carefully for this line. As it is, it doesn't quite make sense. "I'm older than a year". A web search gives a slightly different version:

For so many years have gone though I'm older by a year - this is much clearer that the guy has only aged by a year although lots of time has passed at home.

Your mother's eyes from your eyes cry to me - this seems fairly clear that he is now talking to the daughter or descendant of his lover. Your line about "his lover's mother (less probable)" seems a clumsy way of saying this.

The relativity section is much more clearly stated now and I think it is fine as it is.

Finally, you might like to mention a few places where this theme has been explored:

Planet of the Apes (1968), a film starring Charlton Heston
Semley's Necklace (1966), a short story by Ursula Le Guin
Rammer (1971), a short story by Larry Niven

All of these were popular at the time Queen produced the song.

Again, Gnomon, thanks for taking the time to give a detailed critique.

The title - unless there's a way of producing italics in titles, I accept that it looks a bit messy. I'll fix it.

The 'lyric'/'lyrics' debate is one of those points of personal choice in English usage. I use 'lyric' to refer to the words of one song while 'lyrics' would refer to several. I accept that it's really a case of personal choice, and if the entry is recommended for the edited guide I'll be at the mercy of the editor in that respect. For the time being I prefer to leave it as is.

As the single/double quotes rule is in the Guidelines, then I'll change it to comply.

The quotes around the first line of the beginning of each verse is as published, so I've retained them to be faithful to the original lyric.

"For the Earth is old and grey" ... could equally be a general observation for someone returning from a trip elsewhere on this planet, and not necessarily an extra-terrestrial excursion. Point taken, but to include it could obfuscate the flow.

"Little darlin' we'll we away" is definitely a misprint - I corrected it in the penultimate draft first time around, but unfortunately it didn't make it into the rewrite. I'll fix.

"Older than a year" ... is as it was published. The version of the lyric I'm using is that published in "Queen: The Complete Works", a book of complete lyrics and guitar tabs published in the early '80's. When you listen to the record it sounds like Brian singing "Older but a year", which makes even less sense, so again I've remained faithful to the authoritatively published version of the lyric.

I accept the part about the lover's mother probably being spurious - I'll remove it.

Thanks again!

Guran

PS: is there a policy on crediting substantial input from other researchers (my earlier question about adding researchers to the list refers)?

Good point Bossell - I had forgotten about "for the purposes of cirticism or review" which this clearly is. Hurrar!

Guran - The relativity bit is much much clearer & IMHO just the required level. Technically, the ship is no more "moving at high speed" than the earth - that's the point of relativity - speed is relative but acceleration is absolute. The difference is that the ship has accelerated. You may not care however because the effect is the key thing.

I agree with Gnomon that some of the lyrics sound a little out of place & you might like to check. Even so, the whole point is odd lyrics and infact there could be something else to this that we are still missing!

reading throu' the thing again, I wonder about one or two points from the lyrics which seem of interest:

"letters in the sand" are amusingly letters that cannot be read by teh crew until the ship returns to the beach. Of course if you are moving close to light speed it is v. hard to signal to you & so his lover's letters would be just that. (I realise that you mention the futility of correspondence)

The first verse says "In the days when lands were few". This could either be a reference to the population of earth being so great that land was scarce & they were forced to look for other plantes. Or (& I wonder if this is more likely) that at the time of singing, many worlds are known while in the time the story is set, only few or one (say earth) was populated.

You may have considered these already & chosen to leave them out but I thought I'd mention it.

As far as I am concerned, it is neither necessary nor appropriate to include me in the researchers list - you did the work, I just read it with interest!



Ugi

PS Sand is also a high proportion silicon - could the "letters" be written on a computer?

Guran,

In the present system, if you credit anybody else with helping you to write the entry, then all the names credited including your own, will be put as joint authors. Your name will not necessarily be the first listed. For this reason, I think you should not credit us. Take all the glory for yourself.

There is a proposed new system which will allow minor contributions to be acknowledged, but it is not in place yet.

"Older but a year" makes perfect sense. "But" in this sense means "only". The phrase would mean "older by only a year". This is an archaic use of the word "but", which fits in with the old style of the song. Lyrics as published in books are frequently full of misprints. I'd go with "but" if that is what it sounds like.

Great!

I've taken the freedom to post reference to this entry on this week's Talking Point which happens to be about Time Travel (ok, I know it's not really the same kind of thing, but, er... however )
See: A702280

Gnomon, you've persuaded me on the "older than/but/by a year" point - the fewer speed bumps the easier the read, so going with the published text I have, together with a sensible interpretation of the recording, I've replaced "than" with "but".

Thanks again all for your input - it's a much better entry now, and I think I'll be happy to leave it as it is. Thanks also Ugi for your suggestions, but at this point I'd prefer not to introduce further tangential speculative points.

Cheers!

Guran

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