h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Those bastards!

Yes, folks, Wikipedia has deleted the page on Westcountry Brythonic based on a supposed "consensus to delete" which I certainly couldn't see from where I was sitting. It appears to be a stitch-up with two users using their seniority within the Wiki community to steamroller their votes through, even though the votes to keep and those to delete were split roughly 50-50.

The relevant facts have been merged onto the Brythonic Languages page, so users can always edit that to undo the censorship of the language's revival.

And the article was adjudicated by a 14 year old kid. (Ugen64).
[I am not being ageist but....]

The process does seems to lack a justification - seeing as how the vote was 10-9.

I have created a stub article on Southwestern Brythonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_Brythonic) which I think is fair to both sides of the argument, but which is badly in need of expansion. Get to it, guys!

Nick,

Nice idea.

I know somebody else has suggested an article about South West Brythonic based on the accepted and authoratative texts, and then mentioning Biddulph's attempted reconstruction as a footnote.

Perhaps we let the dust settle for a week or two before doing to much.

I think I have found why the vote for deletion of the "Westcountry Brythonic" article on Wikipedia did not go the way the votes suggested [being 10-9 with a clear consensus needed to delete].

Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia "undeletion" policy

"Suffrage

An editor's opinion will only be counted if that editor:

has been in existence at least one week before the listing, and
has at least 25 non-minor article edits logged

Regardless of the above requirements, the page's initial author may vote (once)."

Exevalleyboy, Plymouth Exile (Plymguy), and a number of other "keep" voters probably didn't meet these requirements (having been drawn to Wikipedia because of this subject).

So it seems that to have your voice heard you need to be registered and have contributed.

By the way, the barbarians who nominated "Westcountry Brythonic" for deletion have also managed to delete the article on Ivernic (a Brythonic language once spoken in Ireland - interesting because I had always thought they spoke only Gaelic) and Neo-Gaelic (a Gaelic based language spoken in North America).

During the Wikipedia debate on 'Westcountry Brythonic' (and before that article was deleted) nxylas wrote a brief alternate article on Wikipedia entitled 'Southwestern Brythonic'.

In recent weeks there has been some discussion about that article - again with Evertype raising his head.

However, another contributor (Angr) made the following posting

"In Peter Schrijver's book Studies in the History of Celtic Pronouns and Particles (Maynooth 1997, ISBN 0-901519-59-6) he cites a dozen words in a language he calls "Old South-West British" which apparently come from manuscripts called "Ang477A" and "LeidLeech". The words are:

dodo i "to them"
dudo em "to him"
guarnoeth-ou "on them"
henneth "that (near you)"
hepdo em "without him"
(h)ou "their"
i "they"
(in)no "that of them"
Macoer "wall"
ois "was"

If anybody has any information on these manuscripts, such as if they've been published, and if it's been established that the language is neither Old Cornish nor Old Breton, then maybe we'll be able to talk about an attested language here rather than a hypothetical one!"

So, it seems that there may be some written evidence to support this language. If anybody knows how we can check the source of Peter Schrijver's book that could be very interesting.

Perhaps predictably Evertype has not responded to this evidence.

For those interested in the previous 'Vote for Deletion' on 'Westcountry Brythonic' it appears that most of th evotes to keep that article were discarded because the voters were new to Wikipedia and/or had not made enough contributions. FYI.

Sorry.

The url link is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Southwestern_Brythonic_language#CONCLUSION

Ozzie Exile,

Thanks for posting the Wikipedia material, it sounds interesting.

Peter Schrijver seems to be well known and has published a great deal on Celtic languages and other subjects.

http://www.indogermanistik.lmu.de/schrijver.htm

This is in German, but the book titles are in English. The book title in question “Studies in the History of Celtic Pronouns and Particles” is the third book listed.

After a few minutes 'researching' on the internet I found the following page concerning some of Peter's work

http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/colloquium/schrijver.html

Although slightly offtopic, I found his suggestion that Frisian and Coastal Dutch were influenced by Celtic to be interesting. Much is said about the similarities between Frisian/Dutch and English, but the usual angle is that of influence from the continent, not to it.

Incidentally this was part of a larger forum which has some other interesting topics on the general subject of British/Saxon contact.

http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/colloquium.html
http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/colloquium/papers.html

Does anybody have a copy?

Slightly more on topic, I did a quick search on 'Old South West British' and although I could find no examples or additional sources, as a language it appears to be sufficiently recognised and important to feature in a number of language lists.

One such is the Indo-European Etymological Dictionary.

http://www.indo-european.nl/lang-abbrev.html

This is a research from Leiden university - and I wonder at a connection between this university and the reference to one document as "Leidleech". Presumably this is where that document now resides.

Perhaps ammunition to use against Evertype should it be needed.

Ozzie Exile,

Following on from your link to Schrijver’s work on Celtic influence on Frisian, I have dug out a summary of a lecture given by Professor Hildegard Tristram, concerning the influence of Brythonic on Old English. Tristram explains that the common logic is ‘no loan words means no language contact’. She then shows that this conclusion is overly simplistic, and that other influences are not only possible, but can be found in the dialects of the lower strata of society. If Old English had been acquired by the Britons in an unstructured manner, and they had passed this on to their descendents, one would expect to see an imperfect morphology being used among the British peasantry. As the only surviving written examples of pre-Norman Conquest Old English texts are from learned people, such as clerics, the imperfections of peasant speech were not preserved during this period. However, when the language of the ruling classes became Norman French, and the common speech changed from Old English to Middle English, the Brythonic substratal influences became apparent. Middle English was much less Germanic in its structure than the recorded superstratal version of Old English, due to the much earlier influence of Brythonic on substratal Old English.

Dr David L White of the University of Texas (Austin), expanded on this hypothesis at the 4th Colloquium of “The Celtic Englishes” at Potsdam. The abstract of White’s paper “The Gradience of Celticity in Englishes” is given in the link:-

http://www.uni-potsdam.de/u/CE/col4/abstracts.html

Although this is not directly concerned with Old Devonian or SW Brythonic, White’s finding that Brythonic influence on the Middle English dialects of England was strongest in the West, does indicate a prolonged contact between Brythonic and Old English speakers in this region, which correlates well with late survival of SW Brythonic.

I have conversed with Dr White in another forum, and he has backed up his evidence with a number of references to academic papers, which he claims clearly demonstrate this effect. Professor Tristram referred to White’s work in the introductory summary for a university course she gave recently:-

“MIDDLE ENGLISH DIALECTS: THE WEST AND SOUTH WEST
Frau Prof. Dr. Hildegard L.C. Tristram
HS - 2 SWS - dienstags - 15.15-16.45 Uhr - 02.14.3.06
Geeignet für: MA/LA, HSt
It has been claimed by Dr. David White (Austin TX) and others that the dialects of the West of England and the South West have undergone relatively little language contact with earlier invaders, such as the Vikings and the Normans during the Early and High Middle Ages, and that the Middle English dialects of this area therefore preserved best the results of the language shift from native Brittonic to Old English after the Anglo-Saxon Conquest in the fifth century AD. Even what is left today of these Middle English dialects shows remarkable archaisms as well as innovations which may perhaps be due to the underlying Brittonic substratum. We will discuss the grammar of various Middle English literary dialects from the West and Southwest by reading and analysing important texts from this area and by studying the respective linguistic atlasses. We will also look into the present day linguistic situation of rural English in the West and South West and compare it with the Middle English data.”

Looking at the issue of ‘South-West Brythonic’, ‘Old Devonian’ and ‘Old South West’ British is not possible that these are all different names for what’s known as Old Cornish?

Old Cornish is the form of Cornish believed to have been spoken between the 8th and the 13th centuries. It says in this article;

“The term “Old Cornish” is commonly used to refer to the Brittonic dialects of southwestern Britain (more generally, of Cornwall) after the loss of final unstressed syllables from Late British around the beginning of the sixth century AD until around the thirteenth centurty AD (when scholars begin speaking of “Middle Cornish”).”

A text called Vocabularium Cornicum is the source of most of what is known about Old Cornish.

http://www.carlaz.com/cornish/

or more clearly here;

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Vocabularium_Cornicum

This article says;

“It is thought to have been written during the middle or late twelfth century as an aid for ecclesiastic speakers of Old Cornish in reading, writing, or speaking Latin.”

I would think that Old Cornish is the most likely candidate for the last form of the Celtic language spoken in Devon, possibly lingering on in border areas, or in isolated parts, into the middle ages.

Pointing out that Westcountry Brythonic may be just an alternative name for Old Cornish, and that Old Cornish definitely existed, might make things clearer for the folks at Wikipedia.

EVB,

I think it is a matter of timing.

Many scholars see the progression of the Celtic tree of languages (in the south west) as Brythonic > South West Brythonic > Old Cornish.

This link shows a couple of alternate language tables.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~marisal/ie/celtic.html

[To add to the confusion here it is called SW Brittonic]

I am not sure what distinguishes one from another - other than Calaz's reference to the loss of final unstressed syllables, which I presume he believes to be the boundary between Southwest Brythonic and Old Cornish.

What Biddulph attempted to do was to compare Old Breton and Old Cornish to find common signs indicating what the language was in the sixth century or so. He then looked to local place names in the south-west as a reference.

There is no doubt that Southwest Brythonic was spoken in Devon at one point.

I think the Wikipedia cabal know this - they just don't like Biddulph and don't believe there is sufficient evidence to define the language (or perhaps enough to make it warrant an article). The recent suggestion that written evidence does exist may change this attitude.

The language obviously developed into Old Cornish, but what is less certain (at least to me) is whether that progression happened throughout the peninsular, or just in Cornwall.

I strongly suggest that as the Celtic language is reported to have survived in Devon to the 14th century there must have been interaction across the Tamar with "Cornish" Cornish speakers for the bulk (if not all) of that time. The language could not have survived for that long in total isolation - except perhaps for the last few decades or even a century or so - but no more. If only a small and isolated pocket of celtic speakers existed the language would be doomed to a short lifetime. Howver Devon may have developed its own dialect - as exists in in various regions of Brittany and within Wales.

It is unlikely that the Celtic language spoken in Devon in the sixth century would be identical to that spoken in the thirteenth.

Ozzie Exile and ExeValleyBoy,

It wasn’t actually Old Cornish and Old Breton that Biddulph compared in his partial reconstruction of West Country Brythonic, but Middle Cornish and Middle Breton. His sources were University of Wales publications “Handbook of Middle Cornish” and “Handbook of Middle Breton”, both by Henry Lewis. Possibly his reason for this was the dearth of textual records of Old Cornish and Old Breton. Also, some linguists seem to think that SW Brittonic directly preceded Middle Cornish and Middle Breton. This would imply that either SW Brittonic was an alternative name for Old Cornish, or that there was a substantial overlap between the two.

If, as has been stated, Old Cornish was the Brittonic dialect of Southwestern Britain from about the 6th century, and not restricted to Cornwall, then perhaps the name SW Brittonic would be more appropriate for it. Although there are no known surviving texts in Old Cornish, there is the brief vocabulary contained in the Vocabularium Cornicum. Purely out of interest, I have taken a closer look at the vocabulary, which is common to both Biddulphs ‘West Country Brythonic’ and the ‘Vocabularium Cornicum, in order to see if there is a high degree of correlation between the forms of the words used in each. Here is a typical sample:-

Vocabularium Cornicum – Old Devonian (Biddulph) – [Meaning]

nef – nef – [heaven]
steren – steren – [star]
heuul – houl – [sun]
luir – loar – [moon]
tir – tir – [land]
mor – mor – [sea]
den – den – [man]
benenrid – benen – [woman]
pen – penn – [head]
lagat – lagat – [eye]
escop – eskop – [bishop]
tat – tat – [father]
mam – mam – [mother]
mab – map, mab – [son]
car – ker – [dear]
ruy – ru, ri – [king]
bugel – bugel – [shepherd boy]
gur – guir – [true]
tur – torr – [tower/tor]
bras – bras – [great]
hir – hir – [long]
maur – mur – [big]
tan – tan – [fire]
dour – dor, dour, dur – [water]
auon – auan – [river]

The obvious conclusion must be that Biddulph’s attempted partial reconstruction is very close to Old Cornish, and that if Biddulph’s West Country Brythonic represents a partial reconstruction of SW Brittonic, then the name ‘SW Brittonic’ is very probably a more apt name for the language, which others refer to as ‘Old Cornish’. Incidentally, the close similarity (shown above) would tend to indicate that Biddulph has done a fairly good job of partially reconstructing at least the vocabulary of the predecessor of Middle Cornish and Middle Breton.

I have come across this curious site - which is based on a Flemish quartrain which has been translated into numerous languages.

Two different versions of 'South Western Brythonic' exist - one 'insular' and the other 'armorican' dialects.

I found this interesting because on Wikipedia I had come across an opinion that suggested that the language did not differ on either side of the western approaches.

I have not studied the text sufficiently to know whether this is "for real", but I thought it worth sharing anyway.

I will show the english and a few selected other languages.

http://www.kwatrynynalletalen.motime.com/

ENGLISH


Fortune cannot be had nor held in hands,
Nor can it be released from time's tight bands;
Your quest abandoned, it comes flooding in
Like mist enveloping late summerlands.

(tr. Alasdair MacDonald)

CORNISH


Lowena nyns yw dhe synsy y'gas dywla
na ny yllough hy dyllo a neus kelmys amser
mes kettel ny's whylough agas gorlyva y whra
avel newl tanow an haf gorthewer


(translated by Talat Chaudhri)


SOUTH WEST BRYTHONIC: "insular" dialect)


Lewenedh nyd yw dha dhelchel y’n dhywleuf
na ny elloch y dyllo a neud keulmyd amser
med kynt mã powesoch y chwilã y's gorlĩf
evel niwl tanou an hãf gourthucher


(translated by Talat Chaudhri)

SOUTH WEST BRYTHONIC: "armorican" dialect)


Lewenedh nyd yw da dhelchel y’n dhowdhorn
na ny ellit y leuskel a neud keulmyd amser
med kynt mã powesit y chaskl y's gorlĩfo
evel niwl tanou an hãf diourth an nos


(translated by Talat Chaudhri)


BRETON


Levenez n'eo ket da zerc'hel en daouarn
na n'oc'h ket evit he leuskel eus neud rouestlet an amzer
met kerkent ha paouezet he c'hlask ho kronno
evel lusenn vunut an hañv diouzh an noz


(translated by Talat Chaudhri)

I just noticed that the font didn't survive the trip unblemished.

"gorlĩf" is "gorlif", with a tilde over the i.

<>

This is sort of what I was arguing for a while ago. However, one could suggest that the Brythonic influences were not necessarily confined to the peasantry. It's possible that, as with many ancient languages, the written form used by the learned was archaic by the eve of the Norman Conquest, and differed even from the spoken language of the ruling classes.

Now, it seems likely (well to me, anyway) that a significant influence on Old English from Brythonic would only be accomplished if large numbers of Britons began to speak it among themselves. So I think that the relative lack of such influence on Old English may in fact be due to a relative lack of Britons adopting it as their native tongue prior to it's gaining a written form (if they only used it as a second language, a lingua franca to communicate with Anglo-Saxons, then they would likely have spoken it in pure[r] form). Once established, it (the written form) may have changed comparatively little, and therefore remained more purely Germanic.

So of course, this means that Brythonic could well have been widespread as late as 600 A.D. with few if any inroads from English.

I've also read that early Middle English had little French vocabulary, which suggests that the changes from Old to Middle English were not really due to the Conguest, as is often claimed.