h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Einion

You are correct in saying that the Domesday Book does mention tenants in chief, the Domesday book is a fascinating account of England in 1087, it does go quite deep in to the land ownership/holdings of the country. The Anglo Norman state inherited a (for the 11thC) a very prosperous realm with good record keeping and capitalised on it. For me, leafing through my (heavily abridged) version, there are very few English names, I can't remember one off the top of my head. Remember the country had just been conquered, you are not going to keep the old power elite in positions where they may threaten you.

Back to Scotland, Lallans was only semi officially used by the court. The Stuarts, especially the Stuarts of the 15th and 16th Century were so tied up with the Auld Alliance, they used French. Mary Queen of Scots was much more proficient in French than any other language and it was English she used to speak to her subjects. And James VI/I used (highly) accented English, in part of the claim to succeed Elizabeth I. His grandfather spoke Gaelic, French and English fluently. So really there are only two national languages for Scotland, Gaelic the "National Language" and English, the language of the overwhelming majority. The Doric heartland of the North East (former Grampian) would possibly accept Gaelic, but never Lallans. For them English is less foreign.

TB

tivvyboy,

The available evidence suggests that William the Conqueror originally wanted to rule the kingdom as England (and with him as the rightful king, rather than conquering it for the Normans), and that he did not wish to disturb the natives too much. However, due to revolts, he was forced to replace more of the tenants-in-chief than he perhaps originally intended. Of course, he did have Norman knights settled in much of the country too, and these would have been ready if the English aristocracy rebelled.

One also remembers the Romans, who generally left the aristocracy of a conquered country intact, but subject to provincial governors. Successful conquerors have usually done this, it generally worked better not to disturb the way of life, and also, it would have been a very big task to replace most of the aristocracy, so it seems that they largely replaced the top level, but wouldn't have considered it too dangerous to leave the rest of the ruling class in place.

Here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/normans/re_evaluating.shtml


On Scotland, Lallans was the language of the ruling classes (I think), even though perhaps not fully of the court. Mary Queen of Scots was, as far as I know, brought up in France among relatives.
However, I remember that the last native Ayrshire Gaelic speaker died in the year of Robert Burns' birth, and Gaelic was also spoken in Fife in the early 1700's, so it is indeed the heritage of the whole of Scotland, both Highland and 'Lowland', something which doesn't seem to be very well known.

Personally though, I think it would not be worth spending a lot of resources on bilingualising road signs etc. in non Gaelic speaking areas, and for Lallans, well probably anyone in the Lowlands who can read would be able to read standard English although perhaps they're more comfortable with Lallans.

Some of you may be aware that BBC Devon ran a number of messageboards - including those on the Devon Flag, Devon History, and Devolution.

Some of those messageboards have recently been taken down from the dropdown list and closed. The Devolution debate seemed to have run its course but the History page still had some life.

The link explains what happened

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/have_your_say/devon_history.shtml

A shame. Could this be related to the recent announcement of a cutback in BBC staff??

The Devon Flag messageboard continues.

>Could this be related to the recent announcement of a cutback in BBC staff??

Apparently so.

I had not realised until now but Exeter once held status as it own county.

http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Exeter/ExeterHist1850/History.html#ANCIENT (This comes from White's Devonshire Directory of 1850_


There are numerous references to "The City and County of Exeter", and these show the name being used back to at least 1643

I knew that other cities also held separate county status (eg Bristol) but I did not realise that Exeter did. As Exeter is the historic capital and seta of local government of Devon does this mean that the County of Devon was governed extra-territorially??

Thanks for posting this Ozzie Exile, very interesting.

I did not know either that Exeter once held county status. As you mention I would think this was a similar arrangement to what still exists in Bristol which still calls itself the city and county of Bristol, and is administratively separate from the rest of Somerset.

My main interest in the article, however, is from something I saw further down, that there had once been a parish called St Kerrian in Exeter. I had never heard of this before and looked up the saint’s name, which sounded as if it was of Celtic origin.

I could not find a saint listing for St Kerrian, but the Irish St Kieran seems to be the closest match;

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintk05.htm

as one of his alternative names is ‘Kerrier’.

In Exeter, there seems to have been a connection between St Kerrian’s church and St Petrock’s.

This article describes items from St Kerrian’s church that, after its demolition in 1873, were taken to St Petrock’s.

“Another monument commemorates John and Faith Mayne, 1679, 1680. Over the north door is a mural tablet in memory of Jonathan and Elizabeth Ivie; this was brought from St. Kerrian's Church when it was taken down in 1873. Behind the south door is a fine piece of carving which also came from St. Kerrian's with the Ivie tablet.”

http://www.wissensdrang.com/stabb097.htm

In this Genuki article a source reveals that;

“St. Kerrian's Church, in North street, is a small, ancient, dilapidated building, which has not been used for divine service during the present century. Its rectory is consolidated with that of St. Petrock...”

http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Exeter/StKerrian/

If St Kerrian is a Celtic dedication, maybe the connection between the two churches reflected their ancient, pre-English past, that survived the expulsions of Athelstan, and lasted until the demolition of St Kerrian’s in the 1870s. I know from living there that Exeter has a bad record of demolishing incredibly important historic buildings, this is one of many, destroyed not by the Luftwaffe 60 years ago but by local authorities many years before. The city gates were another loss (one part-Roman) but I won’t go on...

Does anyone know more about St Kerrian, his identity, and his relationship with Exeter?

EVB,

Yes - St Kerrian is indeed a Celtic saint.

You may be interested to see the following link..

http://www.stythian.org/perranarworthal/pwguide.htm

St Kerrian's other (and more popular) name appears to have been St Piran!!

What connection he had with Exeter I do notknow, but as teh Patron saint of Tin miners he may well have been relevant to Devonians.

Thomas Kerslake in his treatise "The Celt and the Teuton in Exeter" in the late 19th century indicated that by use of Celtic church dedications he could identify parts of Exeter which were predominantly Celtic and which were not. A copy is available from the DCC Westcountry Studies library in Exeter - or at the Barum library.

>>Thomas Kerslake in his treatise "The Celt and the Teuton in Exeter" in the late 19th century indicated that by use of Celtic church dedications he could identify parts of Exeter which were predominantly Celtic and which were not. A copy is available from the DCC Westcountry Studies library in Exeter - or at the Barum library.

Also recently reprinted as an appendix to a facsimile edition of Kerslake's 'Saint Richard the King of Englishmen and His Territory'. I'm trying to get a copy through my local library, though one should always be wary of Victorian scholarship, as historians of that era were not as careful as their modern-day counterparts about distinguishing fact from speculation. One wag wrote that "perhaps" is the word least likely to be found in a Victorian history book!

On another site (see below) there had been a discussion about this board [triggered by our old friend nxylas] to which fulub-le-breton (alias AcrobaticTinman) sometimes contributes

He recently posted a message which drew attention to some other postings on that site - particularly those by CornishInterfada.

Here is a link to Fulub's comments

http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-263-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-15.htm

And here is a link to some of Interfada's rantings (and I do not recommend viewing for young children or those of a weak constitution)

http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-295-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-0.htm

Interfada's comments begin around page 6, but you can see a range of opinion before you get to him/her/it.

In response to Fulub's comments my opinion is that the views put forward by Interfada are objectionable, outrageous and stupid.

They do indeed make Jim Pengelly look almost moderate.

This is simply a relative term however - I still think the TGG site is a dangerous source of misinformation and one that might inspire the budding 'interfadas' of this world toward extreme views - but I think he/she is well out there already and blazing. Moron!

I will say that both Fulub and Conan Jenkin (and indeed nxylas) came out in favour of a mosque in Newquay - and good on them!

Ozzie Exile,

I would tend to be a bit cautious about the contents of the ‘Genuki’ site, without corroborating evidence, as it contains much that is total nonsense. It states that Cerdic had control of Devon and then lost it, despite the fact that the West Saxons were nowhere near Devon in Cerdic’s time (about 500AD). It also states that Athelstan drove the Britons across the Tamar, when William of Malmesbury said no such thing. Is there any other evidence that Exeter was once classified as a County? I am not saying that it wasn’t, only that I would like to see evidence other than that from a historically inaccurate site.

As for CornishInterfada, I don’t suppose that even the mainstream Cornish separatists would welcome him/her into their ranks. I am glad to see that Fulub and nxylas strongly objected to his/her rantings.

I note that Fulub is still claiming that the Duchy Charter implies that the Duchy is coterminous with the County of Cornwall, despite the fact that the Charter makes it quite clear that the Duchy includes land in many counties (most of that land being in Devon). His evidence seems to be that the Duchy took over the lands of the Earldom of Cornwall, but there is no evidence that the Earldom was coterminous with the County. In fact we know that it wasn’t, because the Forest of Dartmoor was land belonging to the Earldom when it was granted to Richard, Earl of Cornwall by his brother King Henry III. Earldoms should not be confused with counties, even when they do have the same names.

>>Is there any other evidence that Exeter was once classified as a County? I am not saying that it wasn’t, only that I would like to see evidence other than that from a historically inaccurate site.

It looks like that page was a transcription from White's Devonshire Directory, circa 1850. Several cities were granted "city and county" status prior to the creation of the county councils in 1888. The Association of British Counties website (www.abcounties.org.uk) says that there were 18 such cities, known as "counties corporate", but doesn't specifically mention Exeter. I remember the Bristol 600 celebrations in 1974, to mark the 600th anniversary of Bristol obtaining county corporate status. I was seven years old and my most vivid memory is of the police motorcycle team forming a human pyramid on Clifton Down which, at the time, was the coolest thing I'd ever seen.

I have just come across the following statement on a website which introduces an 'on-line' book by Charles Whistler.

"Practically this old British “Dyvnaint” represented the ancient Roman province of Damnonia, shrinking as it was under successive advances of the Saxons from the boundary which it once had along the Mendips and Selwood Forest. Ina’s victory over Gerent set the Dyvnaint frontier yet westward, to the line of the present county of Somerset, which represents the limit of his conquest, the new addition to the territory of the clan of the Sumorsaetas long being named as “Devon in Wessex” by the chroniclers rather than as Somerset".

http://abacci.com/books/book.asp?bookID=4731

I don't know what evidence Whistler has for this comment, but it does fit with one reference in the ASC referring to "in Devon in Wessex" and it relates to the landing of some 23 boat loads of Vikings in 878AD.

Although some have suggested that this site (Cynuit) was at Countisbury in North Devon, others such as historian Hoskins has suggested that the landing would not have been attempted here because the cliffs are close to vertical and immense and suggests as an alternative site Combwhich - a site was just west of the Parrett in what is now Somerset.

Therefore Whistler's statement is consistent with Hoskins.

Whistler probably gets it wrong in another area because he sets the story in 710AD which he states "the authority for the historical basis of the story is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which gives A.D. 710 as the year of the defeat of Gerent, king of the West Welsh, by Ina of Wessex and his kinsman Nunna. This date is therefore approximately that of the events of the tale"

The ASC does refer to this event in 710AD but only refers to a battle between Ina and Gerent, and does not tell us the outcome. As the ASC tends to glorify the success of the Saxons it has been suggested that Ina didn't win this one.

Ozzie Exile,

I agree that there is no way that the site of ‘Cynuit’ could have been Countisbury. The cliffs along this stretch of coast (from east of Lynmouth to the Devon/Somerset border) would have rendered any attempt at landing there totally futile. Combwich, at the mouth of the Parrett, would have made a far more suitable invasion/landing point for the Vikings (as postulated by Hoskins).

This of course still leaves the reference (in the ASC) to “in Devon in Wessex” to be explained. The writers of the ASC could well have confused the name Dumnonia with Devon (just as many modern writers do, especially linguists). Combwich would have been a place at the eastern extremity of Dumnonia prior to the Saxon advance westward, so it could well have been described as being “in Dumnonia (i.e. that part which had been absorbed by the Saxons) in Wessex”.

I can find no other likely site for ‘Cynuit’ in North Devon. I believe that Kentisbury has been suggested in the past, but as it is five miles inland (via Combe Martin) and about 600 feet above sea level, it can be safely ruled out as a landing place. Also, its name (the first part of which is derived from the Brythonic ‘centel’, meaning ‘rim’) does not look at all like ‘Cynuit’.

As you also correctly say, the ASC does not state the outcome of the battle between Ine and Gerent, although a number of historians have concluded (without substantiating evidence) that the victory went to Ine. This is most unlikely, as Ine reputedly built a frontier fort near Taunton after this battle. If Ine had been victorious and extended his kingdom well into Devon, any new defensive frontier fort would hardly have been constructed at Taunton, which was probably the frontier before the battle.

Charles Whistler certainly agrees with the 'Combwich' location as the site of Arx Cynuit.

Here is part of his introduction to another of his books "King Alfred's Viking".

"Much controversy has raged over the sites of Ethandune and the landing place of Hubba at Kynwith Castle, owing probably to the duplication of names in the district where the last campaign took place. The story, therefore, follows the identifications given by the late Bishop Clifford in "The Transactions of the Somerset Archaeological Society" for 1875 and other years, as, both from topographic and strategic points of view, no other coherent identification seems possible.

The earthworks of the Danish position still remain on Edington hill, that looks out from the Polden range over all the country of Alfred's last refuge, and the bones of Hubba's men lie everywhere under the turf where they made their last stand under the old walls and earthworks of Combwich fort; and a lingering tradition yet records the extermination of a Danish force in the neighbourhood. Athelney needs but the cessation of today's drainage to revert in a very few years to what it was in Alfred's time--an island, alder covered, barely rising from fen and mere.

.....Bridgwater has no Saxon equivalent, the town being known only as "The Bridge" since the time when the Romans first fortified this one crossing place of the Parret; and the name of the castle before which Hubba fell varies from Cynuit through Kynwith to Kynwich, whose equivalent the Combwich of today is. "

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14034/14034-h/14034-h.htm

In this book Whistler again uses the term "Devon in Wessex" although this time without any explanation.

If Whistler is correct and this name has been used to refer to what is now Somerset west of the Parret (which I have never heard it referred to before by the way) then one would wonder whether this derives directly from the ASC or whether it is co-incidental.

In earlier postings there was some debate about King Alfred's will and the references therein to his lands amongst the Wealcynn (British). Many of those places are in Devon.

An extract of the translated will is

"To my younger son the estate at Arreton,and that at Dene and that at Meon, and at Amesbury, and at Deone, and at Sturminster, and at, Yeovil, and at Crewkerne, and at Whitchurch, and at Axmouth, and at Branscombe, and at Collumpton, and at Tiverton, and at Milbourne, and at Exminster, and at Sutheswyrthe, and at Lifton - and all the estates that belong thereto, that is all that I have among the Wealcynn except for Trigg-shire"

This suggests a significant British continuity in Devon at that time.

At least one person (sorry Nick) questioned the interpretation suggesting that the list included places much further east as well, such as Meon in east Hampshire, and that there couldn't possibly be British continuity at this time so far east.

Well....

I recentlycame across the following site

http://www.steepvillage.com/origins_of_steep.htm

Steep is in east Hampshire - very close to Meon in fact.

Apparently the area also shows a distinct pattern of placenames, with very few if any "ing", "ton", "worth" or "stead" placenames - which usually indicate early Saxon settlement.

Instead it says "Place names raise a possibility that in this part of East Hampshire the British were left comparatively un­disturbed long enough for language borrowing to occur. Liss, formerly Lyss, a mile away, has one of the very few British names, other than river names, to survive[17]. It is the same as the Welsh `lyss', a great house or palace. Glascombe, in Steep but near Liss, looks very like the Celtic `glas', green or blue, plus `combe', a valley. Most dictionaries classify `combe' as an English word, but no related Teutonic word comes to mind, and it must be the same as the Celtic `cumb', modern Welsh `cwm'[18]

There is a concentration of `combe' names in our region reminiscent of those found in parts of Dorset and Devon but unusual in the older Saxon territories. Besides Glascombe, Steep has Lutcombe, Forcombe (a forgotten tithing), Rothercombe and, on its northern border, Flex­combe; and within five miles are at least 31 more, mostly in the Weald­en framework.".

So Meon is not such an unlikely contender after all!!

Ozzie Exile,

In addition to the Meon estate, three of the other estates appear to be east of Dorset and Somerset. These are Arreton, Dean and Amesbury.

Arreton is on the Isle of Wight, where there is also a cluster of ‘combe’ place-names.

Dean could be in Devon, Somerset or Hampshire. If we assume that Alfred was referring to the Hampshire Dean, this is close to Meon, so the same arguments as for Meon would apply.

Amesbury is on Salisbury Plain in Wiltshire (near Stonehenge). Richard Coates has identified a cluster of Brythonic place-names in Wiltshire, which he has interpreted as implying the late survival of a Brythonic-speaking community in the area.

It therefore seems likely that, in addition to the more westerly (Devon, Somerset and Dorset) sites, the other estates mentioned in Alfred’s will were in areas where Brythonic-speaking communities persisted. So when Alfred wrote: “that is all that I have among the Wealcynn except for Trigg-shire (in Cornwall)”, he was almost certainly referring to all of the estates mentioned, and not just to the estates in Devon, or just the Lifton estate.