h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

My impressions of Devon, growing up there, and having lived in Cornwall, are that Devon has a lot in common with Cornwall; accent, traditions; Stannary Parliaments, legends; pixies; food; pasties, architecture; the granite and slate houses, Methodist chapels. I think the 'problem' over a Devonian Celtic identity stems from a lack of appreciation of the idea of border country. Wales does not just begin, Scotland just does not begin. At the border there is always a mixture of the two cultures. Devon becomes more Celtic in 'feel' the further north or west you go. At its furthest east, as at Sidmouth, Devon is very English, but that Englishness fades away as you move further west or north into the county.

The division is economic as well as cultural. The south east of Devon, and Exeter, are wealthy, the north and the west are comparatively poor, and have more in common with Cornwall than with prosperous Somerset and Dorset.

These divisons are historic. Each invading army, from the Romans to Cromwell's forces in the civil war, made for Exeter and established their base there. The Romans established a major city at Exeter but did not expand far beyond it. The Saxons did likewise, as did the Normans who followed. Most foreign invaders of the far West were content to take Exeter and use it as a base. Beyond Exeter the terrain and the resistance have always been too difficult. The Roman, Saxon and Norman invasions concentrated their efforts on Exeter and left the rest of the far West to its own devices. Exeter is a distinctly Roman, Anglo-Saxon and Norman city; from its walls to its cathedral. In past times, it had strategic importance, and has served as the regional capital for various regimes, but beyond Exeter I think that there was very little real influence on the Celtic culture and identity of the far West.

Researcher 250540 -welcome to the debate! By the way R 250540 is a bit impersonal and you you can personalise your space via the 'MySpace' option on the toolbar. You don't have to give too much away - but at least you can sound less like a mad scientist.

With respect to your comments about Devon - I concur - to a point.

I think that the Exe River does form some form of intangible boundary and that the regions to the east do have something of a different 'feel' to those of those areas to its west.

However I think we need to be careful. Exeter itself historically seems to have retained a 'celtic' heritage with a defined 'British quarter' and evidence of a late 'medieval' survival of use of the celtic language. Perhaps it was an early example of multi-culturalism - I don't know.

Some areas further to the east also have distinct celtic linkages - for example Branscombe is recorded by King Alfred in his era as being a place inhabited by Celts rather than Saxons.

Certainly to the west of Exeter the geography changes and Celtic names start to abound as soon as Haldon Hill is climbed. But I urge caution. Devon has an identity for a reason - and we should understand what has united us before we look for the differences.

Welcome to the Celtic Devon board Researcher 250540.

You are quite right about Devon having much in common with Cornwall, and the fact that this is more evident (in feel) in West and North Devon than in Southeast Devon. However, the reality is a little more complicated than that, as recent DNA surveys have shown that the whole of the Southwest is predominantly populated by the descendents of the (Celtic) Ancient Britons, including Southeast Devon. Although Athelstan and the West Saxons established a power base at Exeter (and reputedly evicted the Celts from the walled city), there remained a ‘British’ quarter in Exeter (outside the walls, near where St. David’s Station is) well into the Middle Ages, where it is reputed that the Brythonic language continued to be spoken for some time after the Norman Conquest.

There is some evidence of Saxon influence in West Devon (and even Cornwall), albeit decreasing as one goes west. However, there certainly was never any ethnic boundary at either Exeter or the Tamar. It is interesting to note that you reach your conclusions having lived in Cornwall, as this exactly mirrors my own perceptions, having been born and raised in Plymouth and having spent much time in Cornwall. I think that any observant person with an open mind would reject the Cornish Nationalist assertion that there are no similarities between Cornwall and Devon (purely for reasons of promoting Cornish separateness).

Incidentally, rather than remaining as anonymous Researcher 250540, you can give yourself an appropriate nickname by clicking on 'Researcher 250540' at the top of your message which takes you to your personal space, where you can personalise your details. Welcome again to the discussion.

Plymouth Exile

Researcher 250540 - you may be interested in an article I recently unearthed concerning the survival of the Celts in Exeter. Please refer the 'Celtic survival and tongue' thread on this site.