h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

PennRecca,

Margaret Gelling (in “The Landscape of Place-Names”) also suggests a derivation of ‘Yarner’ from Old English ‘earn’ + ‘ofer’, meaning ‘eagle’s flat-topped ridge’. However, I find this proposed etymology to be somewhat contrived, as most of the place names containing the element ‘ofer’ have the term ‘over’ in them (e.g. ‘Bolsover’).

Furthermore, I have discovered that the old copper mine in Yarner Wood was called either ‘Yarner Mine’ or ‘Yarrow Mine’. Both names contain the element ‘yar’, and there is a Brythonic word ‘yar’, meaning ‘hen’ or ‘chicken’ (Cornish/Breton ‘yar’, Welsh ‘iar’). Although the plural of the Cornish version is given as ‘yer’, it could have been ‘yarow’ in Old Cornish.

There is also ‘Yar Tor’ above Dartmeet, which also seems to contain the ‘yar’ element.

Plymouth Exile

Thanks for your post. I’ve checked out Morton Nance’s dictionary: ‘hen’ is certainly another possibility.

I had overlooked Yar Tor, so have checked it up in the place-name book I mentioned in my previous post. Expecting to find ‘Eagle’ I found ‘Hart’ (Deer). I also looked at Yarninknowle Wood, which is given as ‘Eagles Hill’.

So, no clear answer: Eagle, Hen or Deer, they all seem plausible.

Hello everybody,
Remember that initial Y is a a semi-consonant often equivalent to a G in some dialectal forms. I think of the English pair Gate/Yate, of the Breton Geun/Yeun (a swamp) for instance. What could a Garrow or a Garner mean? Well, a deer in Breton is "karo" (written also karv or karw, according to different orthographic systems, "caroff" in Middle Breton) and it is "carow" in Cornish. Add to this a frequent lenition of inititial C giving a G (e.g. "an garoff" in Middle Breton). That is just another hypothesis. What do you think?

Hi Transmarinus,

As you rightly say, ‘carow’ (Deer) can mutate to ‘garow’, but I’m not sure about ‘garow’ becoming ‘yarrow’ in dialect. I’m afraid I don’t recognise your gate/yate example. I apologise if I am wrong and your theory is good, in which case the possibilities would be; deer (with two possible origins), hen and eagle. The terrain of the area in question would likely suit all three.

I have found an advertising website which claims that ‘Yarner’ is Medieval French for ‘Where eagles soar’ (I guess this relates to ‘erne’). Do you by chance have any knowledge of Medieval French?

Hello PenRecca, your “eagle” idea seems to make sense. But it is rather linked to Old-English than to Old-French. Here are a few interesting entries.

In the gazetteer “Place names of Plymouth”:
Ernesettle, Yernesettle in 1281, Yernesetele in 1383. Thought to be derived from the Old English “ear” or eagle, and “setl” or seat, possibly refering to an eagle (sea eagle?) resting place
Here, you find an initial Y reflecting (as in Yarner) an old local pronounciation.
http://www.plymouthdata.info/Place-Names.htm


Old English, Frisian
Earn
From Germanic *arn-, from Indo-European *er-, *or-, eagle, large bird. Cognate with Old Saxon arn (Dutch arend), Old High German aro (German Aar), Old Norse oern (Swedish örn, Danish ørn), and, outside the Germanic languages, with Greek ornis, Armenian oror, gull, Old Irish irar (Irish iolar), Lithuanian erēlis, eagle, Russian оrёл, eagle.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/earn


English
Erne: bulky grayish-brown eagle with a short wedge-shaped white tail; of Europe and Greenland
http://www.answers.com/topic/erne

Transmarinus,

There are some problems with some of your suuggestions as detailed above, because this does comprehend how Devon placenames are pronounced,

"Ernesettle" is some way away from "yarner" where we started, but it is useful to knote that typically (for Devon) vowels are pronounced, and this is true for Ernesettle

Anyone from Plymouth would pronounce "Ernesettle" as "Urn-y-setal".

It is difficult to see how the anglo saxon "ear" (for eagle) and "setl" (being resting place), which would sound as 'ear-setl', could end up with the current pronounciation. For a start where would the consonant "n", or the additional vowel "y" or "e" come from??

Without a logical linkage for these key components I doubt that we can rely on such an origin.

Well, I think the Eagle has the edge here, but of course nothing is certain. It is surely possible that not all the 'yar' elements derive from the same source, so the deer and the hen are equally valid.

Thank you all.

The "-Combe" suffix can be found in Kent as well, one of the first places to lose the Brythonic language.

"it seems to contain the element ‘yett’, which was a Brythonic word meaning ‘gate’"

It's also a middle English word meaning "Gate". It is still in use in Scottish dialect.

Thanks, raybell_scot to confirm that my Gate/Yate example, illustrating the dialectal change of initial G into Y (which is not uncommon in different languages) made sense . But I don't see 'yett' being a "Brythonic word meaning 'gate'." It's a Germanic word.

I recently returned from eight wonderful days in Devon. Driving north from Exeter I was surprised to pass through a little place called ‘Shute’. According to Richard Coates et. al. in “Celtic Voices English Places”, ‘Chute’ with a ‘C’ is a anglicized version of the Celtic word for forest. There is a Chute in eastern Wiltshire which is listed in ‘Celtic Voices English Places” as being a Celtic place name. Of course there is also a Shute in east Devon next to Axminster and a Shute Farm in South Milton. It seems to me very likely that the various ‘Shutes’ in Devon are also variants of the Celtic word for forest. If this is correct it would mean that the surname ‘Shute is also of Celtic derivation. Any comments?

Newvonian,

According to the Surname Profiler web site, the surname ‘Shute’ if found at high frequency in Devon. In the South West of England surnames often reflected where a person lived when they were first introduced in about the 13th century, so it is quite likely that the surname ‘Shute’ derived from a place called ‘Shute’. Certainly the Brythonic word ‘ced’ (‘wood’ or ‘forest’) occurs in various forms in Devon in attested Celtic place-names, e.g. as ‘chid’ (in Dunchideock), as ‘chard’ (in Morchard), as ‘chett’ (in Chettisholt), and as ‘quit’ (in Penquit). A softening of the ‘ch’ sound to ‘sh’ could well result in a ‘shute’ form of the term.

About the Celts and Saxons in the north and west of Devon. But I've come late to this conversation and perhaps you've all finished with it. Anyway, I read years ago (and I can't remember where) that some of the Saxons came down the Bristol Channel and landed at AberTaw (Appledore) and then marched east to execute a pincher movement on the Dumnonii in the battle of Copplestone (perhaps the one near Crediton).
A lot of the Saxons would have taken land near where they landed, and the writer said that the evidence of that is in the number of "worthy" place names in that area. So maybe the Celts in West Devon/North Cornwall were the first to lose their land.
Another name to note is Whalesborough, near Bude. Perhaps this "Welsh fort" marked an earlier frontier.

In traditional Newfoundland speech the name ‘Edger’ is usually pronounced with the second and third consonants reversed rendering it as ‘Egder’. I had been wondering about this for sometime and it finally occurred to me that, although it may not at first appear to be so, this is actually another example of epenthesis and follows the practice mentioned by Ozzie Exile previously in this forum (Devon Place Names, Sept 22, 2005) that “Devon speech will not tolerate two consonants together”.

Although it may at first appear to be just a reversing of the consonants it also provides a way of inserting a vowel between them. The name is actually pronounced ‘eg ah der’ - although the ‘ah’ sound is quite soft, it is there. I wonder if this form of the name (Edger pronounced as Egder) is also found in Devon and, if so, if it might be a Celtic version of an English name.

A quick correction: Of course, it is actually the first and second consonants that are reversed rendering ‘Edger’ as ‘Egder’.

YARNER BEACON

Some time ago we were discussing the meaning of Yarner.

The Western Morning News have this week published on their website a short video of Yarner Beacon at Dartington. This is in their Sites of Special Sentimental Interest series.

The history of the site is discussed and, of course, we get to see it.

http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co.uk/wmnvideos.html

Driving from Plymouth to Tavistock a little over a year ago I passed by a little place called Grenofen. This name certainly sounds like it could be of Celtic or Brythonic origin to me. Does anyone know where the name came from and what it means?

Thanks to everyone for great info on Devon place names. I stumbled on this from a different direction i.e. looking for evidence of Druid place names in Britain. As a Devon lad, it came as a pleasant surprise to find many are in Devon.

The word "nemed" means "privileged" or "holy" in Old Irish. Coincidently, a nemeton was a sacred space of ancient Celtic religion. There are not a great many Nemeton (or Nymet or Nympton) place names in Britain, but the largest concentration of them is in Devon. So perhaps the Muintir Nemid in Irish legends came from Devon, not Greece?

Of all the counties in Britain, the one that still contains the most places with "Drew" or "Nemeton"-related names is Devon, followed by some in Somerset.

Drew-places:

Drewsteignton
Stanton Drew
Littleton Drew

Then there are the Nemetons. North Tawton in Devon is the most well-known, thanks to it being named by the Romans as Nemetostatio - "The Outpost of the Sacred Groves". Several modern placenames still contain Nymet or Nympton.

Bishop's Nympton
Broadnymet
East Nymph and West Nymph
George Nympton
King's Nympton
Nymet Episcopi
Nymet Regis
Nymet Rowland
Nymet St.George
Nymet Tracey
Nymet in Plymouth
Nicholas Nymet

There are a few in the hills of North Somerset:
The delightfully-named Nempnett Thrubwell and Stanton Drew

Similarly, in the hills of Gloucestershire:
Littleton Drew and Nympsfield

Lastly, Nymetboghe, or Nymetbow, the site of the first henge (re)discovered in Devon, in 1984 by Frances Griffiths. A circular space about 184 in diameter with post holes, probably for a wooden henge like Woodhenge in Wiltshire. The Nymetboghe henge site, and several of these villages, are on a spur of red sandstone, slightly raised fromn the surrounding countryside, that runs from near Exeter towards Okehampton. As such, it would form a natural long-distance path on drier ground across the middle of Devon, north of Dartmoor.

Have I missed any places?

Oh, a sad note about Charter records. The earliest ones are also the ones most likely to have been forged. By monesteries eager to lay claim to land by forging their own title deeds.

Hi Keith,

I did know about the "nymet" placenames, but had not considered "drew".

You did not give the toponomic origins of "druid", nor how it is linked to "drew" but good old wikipedia gives the ancient Irish equivalent of druid as "drui" - so it sounds plausible.

There are many celtic placename elements in Devon pkacenames, and many more that have no known origin.

Hi Keith,

I have looked at the claimed origins of the "Drew" placenames mentioned.

Drewsteignton, it is claimed, was originally called Tainetone, a combination of the Celtic Teign (meaning sprinkling) and the Saxon ton suffix (meaning settlement). Drew was added after a person called Drew was the local sub-tenant in the 12th Century. Now - the Drew name may still have a Celtic origin, but it isn't clear. There are stone Dolmen, circles and avenues in the area, and the link between Drew and Drui has been suggested, but the evidence is apparently lacking. However, the local "Drewe Arms" used to be called the "Druids Arms" until the 1920's.

https://www.drewsteigntonparish.co.uk/history.html


Stanton Drew may be more promising as it's nearby stone circles are large and famous. The local pub is also called The Druids Arms. However it is in Somerset, not Devon.

Littleton Drew is in Wiltshire I believe.

I did a quick search for other "Drew"s in Devon, but didn't find any.

So, there are a few "Drew"s in the broader westcountry, but not so many in Devon. However, there are many many placenames in Devon that are Celtic or have Celtic components.