h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I know that there are economic arguments both for and against the Euro, I even understand a lot of them! I just think that we should not just do everyhting based on numbers. I think currency is an important part of a nations identity. I think that the pound, as one of the more respected currencies of the world, should be kept.

I was on balance in favour of the Euro. Then I read in the Independent recently about how stuffed continental countries are with regard to pensions and an aging population.

We are breeding faster than the Italians, have more private pension provision than the Germans and, unlike the French, we are inured to the idea that old age for most people is a time of poverty.

So our pensions outlay per worker runs about level, whereas it's shooting up on the continent. (Although even we will struggle because of falling yields).

Apparently, if you take pension commitments into account, Italy is running a national debt of 400% of GDP. They might be the next Japan.

My question is, what happens if we join the Euro and things go pear-shaped for the others? Would we be able to stand on the bodies and do rather well, or would it be curtains for us too?

In the united states, we have 50 independant states operating decidedly under one government. The federal government, though, is limited in what it does to the state's soverenties. Each state is quite different. We may not have different languages (it is a bit more efficient to have a single language on a continent thank you very much), but we have very different ideals about running things. A new yorker is as different from a texan as a brit from an italian. We have overcome these differences for many years and been able to sustain a single currency. Some states run things horribly, some wonderfully. As long as the currency is regulated well, things will be fine - there are 200 years of stability in the US dollar to prove that.

Enjoy it. In time, you will come to wonder how you ever managed with 397 different types of money (or however many there actually were).

I am British and proud of the Pound and although I enjoy travelling in Europe and meeting Europeans, I have never had the desire to be governed by them, something the Americans should understand from their own history about being governed from abroad.
The Euro is just another step by faceless unaccountable unelected people who so far have managed to ride roughshod over many countries
by mindless politicians trying to make a stronger powerbase.
I hope that when the British are given a vote on joining the Euro a resounding NO will be the outcome as it should have been on the original vote to enter EEC.

Isn't that rather like someone from Norfolk saying "I like the odd trip to London, but I've no wish to be governed by Londoners". Apart from a dictator living alone on a desert island, any government involves pooling sovereignty. We are ot spectators in what happens in the EU but participants. It's not just an us and them situation, because some of them are some of us.

I see this as the "thin end of the wedge", I'm afraid.

Passport control is already by and large a thing of the past at many frontiers.

Next in line (assuming the Euro is nodded through by a complaisant electorate) will be "Harmonisation" of National Insurance contributions, and a "Consensus" of an appropriate standard level for Income Tax.... do you really imagine that e.g. the Danish government will accept the loss of income they would experience if Danish Income Tax were suddenly cut from the present 52% to match the UK rate of 25%???

Isn't it far more likely that the UK rate would rocket to "harmonise" with the Danish @ 52%?? (but without adjusting the typical UK paypacket to resemble those earned in Denmark!)

Britain voted to join a European Common market and not join the Europian union which now has a Goverment that has soveriegnty over the British goverment. If we joined the Euro there would be no point in us having elections other than for the Europian Parliament as they would have no power to do anything unless the Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Danish etc. very kindly allowed us to do.
Bagheera:t.a.f.k.a.paul mc is right on the income tax but also misses out on interest rates that would almost certainly favour French and German lifestyles rather than all members.

PS
And I don't want to be run by Londoners, anyone willing to pay the house prices in London shouldn't get to run a game of tig between 2 kids

Sorry to bust the bubble, guys, but don't think that UK fiscal policy is dictated by politicians, do you?

Exchange rates are fixed by the market, which is answerable to no-one. Interest rates are fixed by the Bank of England, which looks at the UK's economic performance, consumer spending and the exchange rate. As voters, our buying behaviour has more influence on monetary policy than our votes do. (Which is fine by me; actions speak louder than words. "I'm a Socialist. More champagne dear?")

Most of Britain's exports go into the Euro-zone. Across the Euro zone companies can offer fixed, transparent prices. UK companies cannot offer that because of exchange rate fluctuations, and are at a disadvantage with their Euro competitors. Doesn't it make sense to level the playing field?

I know there are potential problems with differing economic problems in different countries. For instance, what's right for Germany at the moment might not be good for the rest of them. Interest rates are set for the whole Zone, and so Germany suffers unnecessarily.

On balance, I think the benefits of easier trade and improved competitiveness will outweigh the disadvantages, long term.

And as for tradition.... the metric Pound has been in existence for 30 years. What tradition?


Finally, I've already said that I think free trade is beneficial and important, and for this reason I think that George Bush's actions on steel tariffs are wrong. This is in addition to the fact that I beleive him to be a Hypocritical Texan Twunt.




Geoff

They have significantly different levels of income tax in neighbouring states in the US, with different levels of public service to match. With stronger national traditions we should be able to cope with a much wider variation between member countries, so I think that's rather a red (or blue) herring.

. . . and further to your PS!!!

WHen I escaped from London (5 years ago!) I swore I'd paint a sign over the M1 slipway saying:

"LAST MAN OUT: TURN OFF THE LIGHTS!!! "

Suppersready, how can an interest rate favour a national lifestyle? Are low interest rates good with brie but unpleasant with cheddar?

Geoff's BLACK side mentioned The fluctuations between the £ and the € as a major downfall to UK companies.
A bigger downfall to UK companies is the insistance of marine insurance rates on anything travelling over (or more stupidly under) the channel.

This must add quite some overhead to any goods travelling to or from Europe, and does not affect goods travelling within Mainland Europe.

As a Brit living, and being taxed in, Brussels, I personally find the whole thing quite convenient. I only have to carry 3 or 4 different currencies when I travel, instead of (at last count) 7.

In addition, as every transaction/exchange over €1000 has to be registered, it gives the state-wide police at last a chance to catch up with criminal cash-only transactions.

I wonder if Suppersready knows *anything* about how the EU works? I hope you learn a little more about it when you get to uni.


But I digress.

The euro would of course give the UK price transparency.

But Britain will always encounter difficulties from being an Island - it's only now that car prices will (in theory) drop ever so slightly to 'reflect' European prices. But then these companies can always claim import tarrifs as a valid reason for higher prices.

And on the subject of taxes - I don't expect taxes would be harmonized - it'd be too much of a burden for the Nordic governments to carry (a sudden, massive loss of public funding) and too much for the Southern states' taxpayers to cope with (I can foresee rioting on the streets)

Personally, I don't see any of the nations in Europe losing their identities - the French are still proud to be French!


h

Ignore my second sentence - I got Suppersready totally mixed up with someone else.

But my first sentence still stands

Consider it ignored as if I would go to any uni that would accept me.
If you want to be governed by the French(lets have a bbq with this British meat),the Germans(lets support our steel,coal industry even though it goes against agreements,the Italians(creative accountancy to get into the Euro a speciality),the Spanish(we'll only join if we get £5million more back than we pay in)etc,etc etc.We are basically the only Nation that plays by the rules,for which we have royally stuffed for the last 30 years.
At that referendum I did not want to join but being only 12 then I had no vote and have never had the chance since.

Europa: The European Union

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