h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You forgot..."Mormon-One God, and you can be a god too!"

when you have a perfect and absolute understaning of the religion, you may talk about it. who says they can become gods too. what they strive for is perfection. God is perfect. they try to gain God-like characteristics...they dont try to be God.

The main danger inherent in religion is this quest for 'perfection'. In a universe which slowly and relentlessly evolves, nothing is or ever will be 'perfect'. Perfection is an idea of the human mind which the pursuit of causes pain. Imagine how more tolerant and understanding our society would be if diversity and difference were our goals- because we already have it.

hmmmn...Very interesting ideas. But if we strive for perfection we can become better people and therefore be more enjoyable to those around us instead of acting like the buttheads we would normally be if we did not strive for anything. to improve on ourselves is something people have been doing forever...some ppl think diets are a way of improvement..and for some it is. ppl stop smoking to improve themselves. we become healthier and one step closer to perfection. we go to school and educate oursleves and become intelligent and that makes us another step closer to perfection. being nice to everyone and donating to charity is another way perfecting one's self. i dont see much pain in any of this. If people really wanted to perfect themselves, they would automatically become more tolerant and understanding of a lot of things. and what is a goal if we already have it? we have reached that goal and now it is no longer a goal but a reality. so we need a new goal that can take us farther because it is most human's nature to grow and improve on everything.

I find it hard to imagine achieving perfection in a world where we are only guaranteed growing old and dieing. A more reasonable goal to me would be doing the best you can in the time you have - whatever that means to you. I guess doing the best you can could be called "perfection", but it seems a stretch to me. This is not meant to be cynical, but hopefully realistic.

Regarding "religion", rather than an all-knowing, caring, "perfect God", Darwin's image of nature's "Design without a Designer" is more appealing to me. What the scientists didn't take over, the philosophers seem to have handed over to the poets. There are some pretty good poets, though

To advance this debate we need to define what is perfect and who defines it. The problem with religion is that if you don't fit the mould you automatically become a second class citizen. It's not more than two hundred years since we had a society that regarded black people as not even human due to their skin colour, and currently in the UK we have a religiously inspired uproar about the repulsion of a parlimentary bill concerning homosexuality- tell some kid in school being bullied for being 'queer' that their is no pain in the pursuit of perfection.
People who diet tend to because they succumb to social pressures, magazines and celebrities basking in the glory of a better thinner life- what's wrong with being fat? If the individual is happy that way, why change?
The one individual who took the srive for perfection to it's unnatural conclusion was Adolf Hitler and his Arian race. No pain?
If people didn't want to 'perfect' themselves, then they wouldn't judge and see fault in others.
I was being ironic when I wished for a goal that already exists- we don't need to crusade on 'improving' things. With a world population set to explode, more war and carnage than any other time in human history where has our strive for perfection, for standardisation of everywhere got us?

gee i was not made for debate. i do not know how to respond to this but just an observaion, you seem to look at the negetive side of perfection. if you go back to the perfection involved with religion (or at least my religion) there is no murder of any sort or anything really horrible. sure we dont agree with homosexuality but we wouldnt shun them for being different. perfection has gotten us somewhere. what would it be like if there was a surgical performance and the docters knew sort of what they were doing and was was going to happen? now they have it perfected and know what is going to happen. we perfect our government through bills and stuff...

about the darwin thing...i once heard some one say something to the extent of "when i see some one throw bricks in a pile and it forms into a building i will believe that there is no creator"

and why shouldnt science be able to figure out why things happen, God may use science as his tools, natural occurances, and such.

About the Darwin thing-
there is a common misunderstanding that the Darwinian explanation for the evolutionary process is a random process- of course a building will not form by chucking bricks in a pile-
Evolution is 'governed' by random events being selected amid environmental conditions.
The bricks, if thrown over sufficiant millenium will, being conditioned by the wind and eroded by the weather develop into some form of structure. What makes it a building is the interaction of other unpredictable elements reacting to it for their benefit- say a mouse discovering a niche in which to raise a family. It may not result as a building with any aesthetic value, but it will function as a building.
A good example is sited by Prof Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, in his book 'Climbing Mount Improbable', where he talks of the evolution of the eye- look it up. But to paraphrase another of Dawkin's arguements, a religious thinker questioned the evolution of the eye, as how could 'half an eye' function? How could a being with less than 100% vision function? Perhaps the theologan should have thought to ask a blind person, or anybody with partial sight.
I think a good example of a diffence in seeing between us is your phrase 'I was not made for debate'. None of us are made for anything, we adapt to which we choose. One problem I find with religion is that for debate you need to form, or evolve an opinion. I find too many people have one preprepared for them.
'I was not made for debate' could easily be translated as 'I was never encouraged to think'.
As for there being no murder being involved with your religion, I suppose it depends on what specifically your religion is.
Most deaths are the result of dispute- most disputes are on religious grounds, where there is no rational arguement for the differing points of view (I'm right because I believe I am right' versus 'I'm right because I believe I am right'.)
The only solution to this stalemate tends to be murder.
Take a rational view, (I think I'm right because if you test my theory, this, this, this, happens' versus 'Well, I disagree, but I can find evidence for my view, lets meet again and compare results) and the result could be one of understanding and respect.
I don't think I'm negative atall, I think learning to understanding other people, as opposed to not agreeing with them because I can't, is a very positive attitude.

oh golly...too much for so small of a mind (mine). can we talk of a more nuetral subject like pb j sandwiches?

I have no problem believing that there may be a "creator", or some entity that is outside the universe we experience. Or even that that entity initially set up the methods that Darwin uncovered (and then apparently stepped back and just watched what developed ).

But I consider this metaphysical speculation. What disturbs me are people who claim to KNOW something about this entity, what its purposes are, etc. With Wittgenstein, I think that what we can't know, we can't talk about ... except as poetry. And I really do enjoy poetry.

My brother likes poetry too. i like the poetry he writes but i havnt been exposed to enuf poetry to like or hate it. i am interested in just plain old books, novels...preferably historical fictions...

Well, I wasn't trying to change the subject ... but some poetry can be very moving, and I consider some of the "sacred writings" to be such. My favorites tend to be more mundane, like E. A. Robinson's "Richard Cory" (made into a song of the same name by Paul Simon), Robert Service's "The Shooting of Dan McGrew", Coleridge "Rime of the Ancient Mariner", etc. I like one definition of poetry, "The other way of using language".

i havent the slightest clue what any of that is. however...that is a very nice definition...i would have to sat my fav poetry is the stuff musicians right ****twinkle twinkle little star...how i wonder where you are**** ok i am not too fond of that particular song...

The best known of the poems I mentioned is the one by Coleridge, you may have heard it sometime. From the encyclopedia:

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Coleridge contains the lines, "Water, water everywhere,/And all the boards did shrink;/Water, water everywhere,/Nor any drop to drink"

Samuel Taylor Coleridge was an English poet living around 1800. Robert Service was an English born Canadian poet who died in 1958. Edwin Arlington Robinson was an American poet who died in 1935.

Another definition of poetry is "what gets lost in the translation" - so I tend to stick with English language poetry.

As an aside, Mozart composed a series of variations on the melody of "Twinkle, Twinkle ..." Being Mozart, it is very impressive, a dozen or more variations which vary hugely in style. Oddly, good poems do not make good song lyrics, that's why Paul Simon (of Simon and Garfunkel fame) had to "rewrite" Richard Cory to fit the music.

what do u do for a living? you arent some english teacher are you??? but there is nothing wrong with that anyway... how many definitions of poetry do you know? i have never heard any of those.

oh and the only names i recognized were Mozart and simon and garfunkel. being something of a pianist i am more into mozart than
S & G.

Nope, not an English teacher, altho I've been asked that before when I mentioned the (evidently obscure) poem "Richard Cory". By education and profession, I am a chemical engineer. But my REAL interests include music, literature, computers, etc.

To try to stay on topic - religion, I think? - do you play any J.S. Bach? Its interesting to me that the church had trouble with his music (he worked for the church most of his life). They said the music had too many "wrong notes" (chromatic passing tones, etc.), it distracted the congregation from their prayer. JSB changed jobs a lot.

If you've seen the movie "Amadeus", you know that Mozart's music just had too many notes, period. I play (poorly)a short piece by Mozart that is great, "Theme and Variation". One page, better than most symphonies, IMHO.

Nope, not an English teacher, altho I've been asked that before when I mentioned the (evidently obscure) poem "Richard Cory". By education and profession, I am a chemical engineer. But my REAL interests include music, literature, computers, etc.

To try to stay on topic - religion, I think? - do you play any J.S. Bach? Its interesting to me that the church had trouble with his music (he worked for the church most of his life). They said the music had too many "wrong notes" (chromatic passing tones, etc.), it distracted the congregation from their prayer. JSB changed jobs a lot.

If you've seen the movie "Amadeus", you know that Mozart's music just has too many notes, period. I play (poorly)a short piece by Mozart that is great, "Theme and Variation". One page, better than most symphonies, IMHO.

Woops, I got an error message so I resent the message, evidently the first one got through. How do I delete one of my messages?

i have played some Bach but i dont remember any of it... i havent ever heard of "Amadeus" the mozart peices i hv played are multipaged...Sonata in C major(1st movement) is 5 pgs long, another one, turkish march (from Sonata NO.11 in A major) 6, and Fantasia in D minor is 6 pgs long. i look back at these pages and am so suprised at all the markings made in it...*pedal, no pedal, stacatto, get faster, slow, loud, rest, dont rush* so many marks made by my teacher..there has gotta be 4 different highlighter colors, pens and pensils in here!!

oh on the topic of religion...in my religion class today we got the lyrics to a song and i'll show it to you:

A Lamp Unto Your Feet

How did this happen,
Why did I stray?
Where did i stumble and lose my way?
Have I lost my sense
Of wrong and of right?
Am I in shadow or am I in light?

Chorus:
If you're torn between wrong and right
Open your heart and receive the light
When life leads down a darkened street,
The word is a lamp unto your feet.
The word is a lamp unto your feet.

Standing in light,
Yet blinded by sin-
Can I escape this confusion I'm in?
Surrounded by love,
Yet burdened with strife,
Can I recapture the light in my life?

Chorus

Treasure the word, the lamp of truth,
Light to your path, guide in your youth.
Hold up the lamp that sets you free,
Opens your eyes to eternity.

Chorus

You might enjoy the movie "Amadeus", its about the life of Mozart, I'm sure its for rent at video stores.

My one page copy of "Theme with Variations" (from Piano sonata in D Major, K.284) is from a music theory course. It's also marked up but with comments about the structure, harmonic analysis, etc. At the end of measure 12 is a quarter rest. The note I made based on the professor's comment says "This rest is genius - it makes the piece humorous".

Your lyric reminds me of the song "Turn, Turn, Turn" by the Byrds. The lyric is an adaptation of the Book of Ecclesiastes, I think. Great song.