A Conversation for Alfred the Great, King of the West Saxons

Alfred and the Navy

Post 1

Bran the Explorer

Great entry! Just a small point about Alfred and the "navy". Its success is probably a bit of an exaggeration. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is actually fairly ambivalent about the effectiveness of Alfred's ships - they were known to run aground and be a bit cumbersome, as they were built of a size bigger than the average longship. Have a look at the Chronicle, can't remember the year but in the 890s somewhere. What is most interesting is that he had a bash at doing what the Vikings were doing, but could not really master them in this arena. What was most successful about his defense against the Vikings was his establishment of a standing army, and the building of a series of fortified burhs within Wessex that effectively dealt with the problem of Viking surprise and mobility on land.

More on the ninth century would be great if you have anything. It is a fascinating period.
Cheers
Bran.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 2

Demon Drawer

Thanks for that I'll check it out, I think I got some of the navy stuff from an old Blue Peter Annual, I try some other sources for objectivity though.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 3

Bluebottle

One more thing, you haven't mentioned fortification.
There have been 3 periods of Fortification of the southern England, and King Alfred's was the first. (the other periods - Henrican and Victorian I am writing articles on) So, are you going to mention Alfreds forts at all?
A local Fort nut,

<BB<


Alfred and the Navy

Post 4

Demon Drawer

I reckon I still have a large number of weeks before it reaches top of the pile so I'll fit them in. I visited a lot of the Irish hill forts in this area, so I'll mention this important part of Alfred's history.

DD


Alfred and the Navy

Post 5

Bluebottle

Cheers, thanks. It's a great article, BTW - could you mention Arthur's Grandfather (was it Wightgar)?
I want to check if he was the King of the Isle of Wight, so can you confirm..?


Alfred and the Navy

Post 6

Demon Drawer

Why would I mention Authur's grandfather in an article on Alfred. Although Alfred is decended from Wihtgar on his mother's side whose uncle Cedric had given the Isle of Wight.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 7

Bran the Explorer

Alfred's grandfather was Ecgberht, and father was Aethelwulf. Alfred gained the kingdom after each of his older brothers had been killed (Aethelstan, Aethelbert, Aethelbald, Aethelred (not the "unready") ... in that order).

It seems unlikely that Wihtgar was actually a real person, but a made-up ancestor to explain the name "Wight". Wight is based on the Latin name for the island, i.e. "Vectis". It is unlikely that Wihtgar, a Saxon supposedly who arrived from the Continent in 514, would have done so with a Latin-based name! I think Cedric is meant to read Cerdic.

There is a great new "Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England" out, which is full of info. All very accessible too.

Cheers
Bran.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 8

Bran the Explorer

Sorry, Aethelbald should be before Aethelbert.
Bran.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 9

Bluebottle

I heard it was his mothers father... so do you know who he was?
(Afterall, everyone has two grandparents)


Alfred and the Navy

Post 10

Demon Drawer

Of the top of my head with no history books around here it is something like Oeswurth, but don't quote me on that until after I check it this evening.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 11

Bluebottle

Oh right, thanks... Just wondering...


Alfred and the Navy

Post 12

Demon Drawer

Just checked and I was totally on the wrong track he was called Oslac. Sounds a bit like the best member of Blakes Seven if you ask me.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 13

Bluebottle

Is there anyone with any Wihtgar-like name listed anywhere?
If not, I'll shut up and leave you alone - I'm just curious as to why I remembered something like that.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 14

Bran the Explorer

Sorry ... can't find anything with Wightgar being a grandfather of Alfred, or even a near relative. BUT there is very little remembered about women's genealogy, so it is possible the name is there somewhere. Alfred's mother was called Osburh, daughter of Oslac. That's all I have.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 15

Bran the Explorer

P.S. Have a look at my page for a link to Simon Keynes' website - he has a huge number of links for Anglo-Saxon history.

Bran.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 16

Demon Drawer

As I said earlier, he is an ancestor of Alfred's mother, though not her father, but somewhat further back, I don't have a source for the exact linkage though.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 17

Bluebottle

What, Wihtgar-person? Or someone Bran was talking about? Was he (if Wihtgar) King of the Isle of Wight - *very confused by last message*


Alfred and the Navy

Post 18

Demon Drawer

Of that I'm not sure all I can source was that Withgar's uncle Cedric was the King (or equvalent)of the Isle of Wight to have been able to gift it to the Kingdom of Wessex. Whether Withgar was sub-king of the Isle or de jure King after this happened I am not aware.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 19

Bluebottle

Ah - and Cerdic/Cedric was the first real King of Wessex, wasn't he? I knew I'd heard of him somewhere - even if I was a century and a half late.


Alfred and the Navy

Post 20

Bran the Explorer

Cerdic is a bit of an enigmatic figure, who is often considered to have been British Celtic, as his name is an Saxonized version of British Celtic Caraticos. This, of course, makes him an unlikely candidate to have stepped off the boat from the German homeland in 495 (as per the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle) ... he surely would not have done so bearing a British Celtic name! This has led some people to hypothesize that he did not actually exist, but was one of a host of mythological figures invented to explain certain placenames (as per the Wihtgar - Isle of Wight thing I mentioned above). Others have suggested that he was a British chieftain who hired Saxon mercenaries, and was thus remembered as a leader of Saxons. No real answer to be had, I suspect.

Personally, I am very wary of any supposed historical information about the Anglo-Saxons pre-600 and even pre-640. They were non-literate, and could not have kept records until Christianisation c.600; and oral societies do not tend to make a clear distinction between what we now call historical and mythical. Still, all good stories.

Cheers
Bran.


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