h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"It is on the other hand ok to point out that deliverance ministers feel that homosexuality is a case of possession by demons, and that this entry does not endorse this view in any way"

Yeah, that's what I though it meant. Are you one of those PC police who scrutuinize everything for the slightest signs of what might not agree with modern liberal standards. I'm not anti-homosexual, just pointing something out.

As for the demon/daemon thing: I guess that any being is generall perceived as capable of both good and evil. After all, Lucifer was the brightest of the angels before he fell (The Bible, ????, various), whereas Asmodeus was an archdevil who, along with his followers, converted to Judaism and accepted the Torah (The New Encyclopedia of the Occult, 2003, John Michael Greer).

It's more than non-PC to suggest that homosexuals are possessed by demons! Anyway, there's harm in reporting someone else's view as long as you make it clear that that is all you are doing.

I never said that demons couldn't control humans well I just said that after a few thousand years they may be a little rusty at it!

As for humans becoming demons I may have confused you a little. Satanists are often promised imortality by their masters. However they aren't told that they have to die first. After countless millenia writhing in torment in hell they may be contorted into daemons as a special reward or punishment.

Demons are made out of the same spirit energy (called ethirum) that human souls and angels are!

Trust me I know about these things! Demon hunting is a hobby of mine!

How do you know this? It sounds to my sceptical ear as unmitigated b******s.

No, really. Is this entry based on any evidence rather than hearsay or dubious revelations?

Of course it's unmitigated b*****ks!

But if people believe it, then we can have an entry about it.

As long as it is expressed reasonably - that is, not dogmatically "this is how it is", but more "Thomas Aquinas wrote this treatise, which describes such and such" or "It appears that the Ancient Greeks believed demons were so and so"

Dogmatic statements really raise my hackles (one type that makes me is "God gave us free will to ...", but I realise I drifting dangerously off-topic)

Pimms (breathe in, breathe out aaaah)

In regards to homosexuality demons I agree with you completely. As I tried to pass across in my commentary on the matter I find deliverance ministers to be mostly a joke on a great many points. Saying they claim(and I thought I used the word claim if not i"ll fix that) to cast out those kinds of spirits is drawn directly from there own literature. The existence of such a spirit is one question but does not alter the fact they think it exists.

As far as humans becomming demons(or angels for that matter) its a popular myth of some black magicians. Most demonologists do NOT take it seriously(demonology is a lot more then a hobby for me I'm a student demonologist under Lou Gentile). Yes the human soul and the spiritual existence of an angel is similar but they are not the same. Angels were created as angels and given a single choice. Demons are the result of that choice. Humans are different and ultamitely in Christian or Judaic theology superior beings because we constantly choose.

Let me also point out the article is meant as an OVERVIEW of the subject. It was not my intention to cover every single theory, belief, and possibility covered by demonology or even by Christian Demonology. To even broadly cover Roman Catholic Demonology with high accuracy would require me to write several books the size of an unabridged dictionary and even then stuff would get left out. There are dozens of books on the subject most of which disagree with each other. So rather then take that much space and time(which I don't have) I choose to give a broad overview of the history highlighting some of the major points and then to focus on the modern practical demonology laid down by Roman Catholic exorcists and demonologists. I choose that particular side for several reasons. One it's the side I have the most direct knowledge of since its what I work in, and two its the side that the largest body of readily available text exists for. Several of the books I listed are still in print and readily available and the others ca be found in libraries or used book stores. They're written by inteligent coherent people and are intended so that a layman can get a feel for the subject. Other branches and forms are harder to get reliable information on. Black magicians are not generally inclined to share the specifics of there belief systems and most legitimate grimoire's on the subject are written in deliberately convoluted and incomprehensible ways. Further as a student demonologist I'm disinclined to share large volumes of information relating to black magick because of the problems it can and does create.

The simplest way to avoid the problems of too much detail might be to actually change the title to something like "Demonology - An Overview"

Researcher PSG

Let me point out more about the homosexuality question. Reread what I said I think it's obvious to a reasonable person I am simply relating the beliefs of deliverance ministers. Am I making an ethical judgement on homosexuals? No. Am I telling people that this idea is credible again no in fact I think I make it pretty clear that I don't consider the ideas of most deliverance ministers worthwhile. The point is though to objectively discuss the field of demonology. Doing so means relating the religious beliefs involved which means YES people are inevitably going to get offended. Read back through this discussion and see some of the commentary on my choice to focus on the Xenocratic/Christian/Judaic defenition of the word demon as opposed to more commentary on the other Greek defenitions. Saying the entry endorses or denounces any idea with in is NOT objective its commenting I believe unfairly on some one elses religious beliefs. Hence instead I simply state the beliefs as beliefs and let people rely on there own judgement. If I had made sweeping claims about what is and is not a legitimate demon you'd have a point but given that most religions take there demons from the god's of other religions(Christianity is just the most famous for this most other religions that have evil gods and demons do the same thing) it'd be a considerably longer and unncecisarily confusing entry.

As far as the basis of this entry its from several different forms of sources.
1) Texts on demonology both historical and modern
2) Direct training from a nationally known practicioner(in the US)
3) First hand experience

Is it provable scientific fact? Nope but not once any where in the article did I imply that it was. I stuck to the claims made by both historical and modern demonologists as they were. Whether you believe in demons or don't has no impact on two basic provable facts. One a great many cultures have legends of demons and two many denominations today still believe in demons and there power over the physical world. Does that prove they must exist? Of course not. It simply proves that a body of information has been created about there alleged existence and that it can be interesting and even useful to understand some of those beliefs. Do you need to believe that spider eggs in bubble gum will hatch in your head or that Jesus Christ regularly hitchhikes through the US to study modern urban legends? No but in studying these legends we can gain an understanding of the mind set that created them. The same is true of demonology. Quite a bit of the inquisition and witch trials makes more sense if you understand what they were looking for(I'm planning on writting a very long peice on the witch trials as well just want to do some rechecking on sources).

Thanks for explaining that to us, Kevin. Now see how much of that explanation you can work into the entry, because as soon as this hits the front page, you will get endless comments shooting it down, unless you've made yourself clear as to its scientific basis.

I have heard of a case where a daemon which was orginally a human used the fact that the inmaterium has no time to go back and posses the human body of it's previous self. Seeing as the majority of daemons are seriously hurt when you mention their true name (did you mention this?) This is some feat of resilence on the daemons part! If you want to research this case look up Setora Dequal.

In regards to clarifying the theoretical nature of the article I thought I had made that relatively clear in the first paragraph. I was well aware of the problems which is why I start by stating and repeatedly state it's not some thing that can be proven emphiricaly yet(personaly I believe it will be some day but I"m not naive enough to think that days here).

As to the case of a human spirit becoming a daemon I'd want to know which theology it came out of. In Christian demonology the idea doesn't really exist. Humans are seen as superior to angels(let alone fallen ones). What it may be is an account of the Judaic concept of the dybbuk which while a predecessor to the Christian demon is not quite the same thing. Human spirits have some ability to also manipulate the physical world.

You say "this is not some weird ritual but instead the use of prayer and holy items in a particular manner". In other words, it _is_ a weird ritual.

Change the "Modern Theory" heading to "Stages of Attack", and then put a heading at the start of each section about a stage. The sub-editor will change these to Subheaders later. Put a new paragraph and header before the word "Invitation".

Some more typos to be fixed:

traveled the world --> travelled the world
his students most notably --> his students, most notably
Mr Warren holds both are well known --> Mr Warren holds, both are well known
in there own right --> in their own right
demonic activity documenting it --> demonic activity, documenting it
many would expect there methods --> many would expect, their methods
involves carefully interviewing --> involves careful interviewing
one demonologists investigate --> one, demonologists investigate
two demonologists have --> two, demonologists have
examples of natural phenomenon --> examples of natural phenomena
at the end for more details. --> at the end for more details).
familiar with possession demonologists --> familiar with possession, demonologists
The second law that of attraction is also straightforward Like attracts like in the spirit world. --> The second law, that of attraction, is also straightforward: like attracts like in the spirit world.
it has believed that --> it is believed that
result of there choices --> result of their choices
special, mention --> special mention
Salem MA --> Salem, Massachusetts
moves on ward --> moves onward
no where --> nowhere
with know apparent source --> with no apparent source
terrifies a person to badly demons --> terrifies a person too badly, demons
escalate the phenomenon --> escalate the phenomena
Through out this stage the spirit involved begins --> During this stage, the spirit involved begins
in the persons mind --> in the person's mind
victims free will --> victim's free will
which the ultimate goal --> which is the ultimate goal
i.e. Latin --> eg Latin
there phenomenon --> these phenomena
can some times move --> can sometimes move
"Manual on Demonology for example --> 'Manual on Demonology' for example
demons ratable phenomenon that lacks a scientific --> demonstratable phenomena that lack a scientific


If you can get that lot fixed, this will look an awful lot better.

Ah so you are saying by becoming what for lack of a better term I shall call a daemon prince dammed souls are making a step down the ladder rather than up it as in forsaking their humanity they are becoming inferior to it! An intresting theoligy, my masters will be most intrigued! By the way if angels have no free will how did Satan defy God in the first place? I don't mean to be offensive but that is a hell of a loophole!

In regards to the status of humans under Christian theology. If you read the book of Revelation it actually states that in the end times humans will sit in judgement over the angels. We have in us a potential greater then any angel including Lucifer which is a major part of why the two sides fight so rabidly over us. As to humans becomming demons aside from the fundamentally opposing nature of the two forms of spirits demons hate us to much to follow orders. Humans who conjure demons get what they want because the demons know in the end the soul will go to Hell. Money, power and revenge against your enemies is really insignifigant gifts for the dark side to give when in return it allows them both entry into this reality and gives them a soul to play with to boot. Hell is ultamitely the universes greatest example of the saying misery loves company.

In regards to the free will of angels its a little different then it is for humans. When angels were created they were created to exist eternally in the presense of God. No angel fallen or otherwise has ever questioned the existence of God they know he's there. As such they were given a single choice. Serve God or rebel against him. Two thirds of them chose to serve him the rest have chosen rebellion and formed the forces of Hell. Humans are different because as long as we live we have the power to keep changing our minds. Its a fundamental principle of Christianity that even the most dreadful serial killer can still wind up in Heaven if before the end he redeems himself(this does not excuse them from mortal punishment even scripture says those who commit murder are to be executed so that they may face God'sjudgement and there own victim). On another not please do not assume I take offense at your comments. I don't I've always enjoyed a good inteligent debate. I may not agree with your points but I do respect them as being inteligent disagreements. We often learn the best from the people we agree with least.

"Its a fundamental principle of Christianity that even the most dreadful serial killer can still wind up in Heaven if before the end he redeems himself"

Apparently the Book of Enoch was removed from the Bible for a number of 'heretical' ideas, including things such as karma, reincarnation, Eastern mysticism, the world being created by dark forces, and one choir of fallen angels (the Watchers or Grigori) mating with humans. There is quite a lot of empirical evidence for past lives, hence I am inclined to believe in reincarnation and therefore karma. Perhaps this is how the serial killer redeems himself, by constanlty coming back until their karmic debt is paid off by whatever method. The problem is when people go to Hell - presumably this is the result of something seriously evil, like summoning a demon, as you have said.

The Book of Revelations also describes Lucifer, Death, Hades, and Babalon (sic) bringing all the dmaned out of Hell, and then being banished to it themselves. This could mean that no-one is lost forever.

If referring to a demon by its true name hurts it, does that mean that Lucifer can't hurt you if you refer to him as Choronzon? According to the Enochian angels which visited Drs. John Dee and Edward Kelley, this is his true name.

A priest told me that an exorcism binds a demon in the name of Jesus. Does that mean that it could also bind one in the name of Muhammed, or could only a mullah do that? Also, why aren't priests allowed to talk about exorcisms?