h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Saying something like that shows his objection to religious people stems from deep prejudice.

I, for example, enjoy talking to Sorb 'cos he amuses me with the funny things he says.


For example,

"this 'God is not subject to time' nonsense".

Now assuming there is a God then this is certainly not nonsense but pure logical truth. How can God, if he exists, be subject to time? Time cannot exist until the universe is created, and the universe is created by God, so therefore time is subject to God and not God to time, yet Sorb says

"this 'God is not subject to time' nonsense".

At one point he stated it's fair enough to believe that God created life on earth. If it's fair enough to believe in God, then it's surely fair enough to apply logic in stating that God cannot be subject to time.

THE funniest thing I have heard this year.

Thank you. I ned some major cheering up this week.

However, the predicitable finale of this 'discussion' was almost depressing me more...'God did it'.

Researcher 179541, you say it's funny to say Sorb's grasp on logic is faulty. But where's the logic in saying that it's not worth talking to someone about ANYTHING just because you disagree with them about one point.

And what logic is there in saying it's nonsense to say God is not subject to time? If there's a God, of course he isn't subject to time. If you dismiss this as nonsense then you are not thinking logically.

<> SoRB

<> WG

If the answer to any of these questions is 'god did it', then, yes, it would be a waste of time. Your logic's not brilliant either, is it? Or maybe it's just your reading. At least read what other people say properly before you give a reply to their statements.

As PSB says, this conversation has strayed from SETI to a debate about God and abiogenesis. This is because how you envisage life appearing on other planets will be tied to how you believe it to have arisen here.

I've stated my point of view as a theist, but in some ways I'd prefer to discuss this from an atheistic point of view. I said I found Sorb's ideas interesting, and I meant it. It is interesting to imagine how life may have arisen without the presence of God. Maybe it will be more helpful if I try to shelve my religious point of view. I do take the point that saying "God did it" does rather shut down the discussion, which wasn't my intention. It's just that Sorb asked me, so I told him.

Now I had some questions which would probably be best answered by someone like Sorb.

How long ago did the Big Bang happen?
(I understand it's about 14billion years)

When did conditions on earth become viable for life to emerge?

How long ago did life in fact appear on earth?

Because based on previous EVIDENCE the argument becomes the usual cicular reasoning loop that all Christians get into.

i.e.
God exists.
How do you know God exists?
Because it says so in the Bible.
Why do you believe the Bible?
Because it is the Word of God and God does not lie.
So, you believe God exists because it says in the Bible, which is the Word of God, that God exists?
Yes...


This is not logical but it is where discussions like this end up as there is no where else to reduce the argument to...i.e. you cannot get past the question of 'Where did God come from?' because as you have stated God has always ben here..

Why?
Because it says so in the Bible.
Because it is the Word of God and God does not lie.
etc



Because there is no proof that he IS NOT subject to time...or in fact IS subject to time...unless it says so in the Bible.



Why??!?!? Where is your EVIDENCE..and if you say the Bible...



No, I am not using your warped idea of logic.

I do dismiss this as nonsense as the only place it is inferred is the the Bible...as the general history of the Bible can be followed back to Northern Africa(especially the OT) and is man-made one can see that the Bible isn't the authoritative tome you take it to be. Therefore, it is logical when you see that the only 'evidence' is a collection of stories of man-made origin then one needs to find other evidence of the existence of God and also the origin of God.

I am still waiting...oh...of course I am just talking about your 'Abrahamic' God here. I will leave out all the other god's that came before and were around at the time your god was telling everyone to not worship any other god than him.

Anyone can find this out.

Why not use the huge search engine and repository of information at your finger tips and find out yourself.

Those 3 questions have agreed answers amongst the scientific world. Look up a few sites quoting them and get the general best figure.

You have not led into another following question based on these facts.

So, if you have some sort of follow up to try and trap anyone why not just get it out the way now, eh?

Pedro, you are implying that I misunderstood what Sorb was saying, aren't you? But maybe it's you who has misunderstood what he was saying.

When Sorb said "if that's your answer to *any* question then it's not worth talking to you about *anything*" did he mean

A "You're religious so it's not worth talking to you about any topic"

or

B "It's not worth asking you any specific question if you answer that specific question with the answer 'God did it'"?

Now I took it to mean 'A'. Maybe he meant 'B'. Here we need Sorb to enlighten us.

No, I understood perfectly, I think. *You* chose to pick stupid examples, when you knew he was speaking metaphorically rather than literally. Typical of you so far, I have to say, to try to muddy the waters.

Researcher dot dot dot...

You've raised a few points, so I'll start with just one.


Because there is no proof that he IS NOT subject to time...or in fact IS subject to time...unless it says so in the Bible.

Why??!?!? Where is your EVIDENCE..and if you say the Bible...


When we speak of God, we mean the creator of everything. Time is a dimension, and dimensions are part of the created universe. The created universe is subject to the creator, so time as part of the created universe is subject to God.

All that I have said is pure logic without any reference to the Bible.

Pedro,



So it was 'B' in your opinion?

< *You* chose to pick stupid examples, when you knew he was speaking metaphorically rather than literally. Typical of you so far, I have to say, to try to muddy the waters>

I'm sorry you didn't like my examples.

I don't think it's helpful to come out with statements like "it's not worth talking to you about anything". Nor is it helpful to talk about "the hard of thinking".

Yes, it was B, as you well know.

<>

Maybe not, but it's not helpful either to deliberately misunderstand and twist the words of other people, does it?

<>

..is it?, obviously.

No, it isn't.

>>Just because we disagree about one thing it's silly to come out with a statement such as: "if that's your answer to *any* question, then it's really not worth talking to you about anything".<<

if SoRB asked you for help in getting medical help in a remote part of Russia... and all you answered was "God did it" ( IIRC, meaning in christian dialogue... its in God's hands) then i could see his point about how it really would not be worth talking to you about that *any*thing.

If SoRB asked for advice on contest judo or wanted to know some good places to visit in Turkey or Azerbaijan or wanted to learn how to speak Russian.... and you answered "God did it" (christian dialogue: God will show you the way) ...sure, i wouldnt ask you again either.

I don't believe that's what I did, certainly not intentionally. Honest.

Yeah, Fluffy K, if that's what he meant you'd be right. Maybe that is how he meant it (option B in post 189). I took it another way (option A in post 189). That's why I reacted like I did, because if it was A then he's a prejudiced bigot (sounds inflammatory, but it would be the case). If he meant it like you're saying, that's different.

>>Just because we disagree about one thing it's silly to come out with a statement such as: "if that's your answer to *any* question, then it's really not worth talking to you about anything".<<

if SoRB asked you for help in getting medical help in a remote part of Russia... and all you answered was "God did it" ( IIRC, meaning in christian dialogue... its in God's hands) then i could see his point about how it really would not be worth talking to you about that *any*thing.

If SoRB asked for advice on contest judo or wanted to know some good places to visit in Turkey or Azerbaijan or wanted to learn how to speak Russian.... and you answered "God did it" (christian dialogue: God will show you the way) ...sure, i wouldnt ask you again either

When we speak of God, we mean the creator of everything. Time is a dimension, and dimensions are part of the created universe. The created universe is subject to the creator, so time as part of the created universe is subject to God.

V'Ger seeks the Creator!

Does that mean you liked that train of thought?