h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I agree it all starts and ends with small deceptions within ourselves.

Has anybody read People of the Lie? by Scott Peck
It is is one of my favorite books on the topic of evil.
Everyday evil but not preachy. It's about the choices and habits we make in lying to ourselves. His book the Roadless Traveled does too.

I do not think of evil as a battle or even fight against it as much as I act in spite of it. You cannot get stuck on the good or bad you do in any given day or stuck in the past.

I suppose I think of fear as anti-love.
Fear paralyzes, lies and is a seductive evil.
Love is a verb.
Yep. I experience all daily!

Scott Peck, yes abbi I read both but so long ago I don't feel able to comment in detail. I was greatly impressed at the time and quite disturbed by "People of the Lie". I think I eventually felt something was lacking and left the poor man behind. Perhaps I should have another look. Love ed.

I read them about every 5 years.
The first time I was in my 20's and did not get through "Road"
2nd time I did but was agitated.
There has always been room for me to grow and check back.
I get something new each time and I am faster at picking out my faulty thinking each time.

Just as we were talking of layers of meaning/learning I was still getting something from it the last time. I love having some books as old friends.

Maybe it is time again

I may find something lacking this time!
I would be comfy picking up on something amiss or missing.
It might signal I am taking my learning further.
Interesting hopeful thoughtI have had many challenges since the last reading.

Hmm *1-2-3-testing testing testing*

We all seem agreed evil exists. I would say it is a coward. Hates the light of day. If you can stand your ground with a strong torch it will back off. To stand your ground with pure love is all-powerful. I always felt sorry for the Gadarene piggies though! If you are in Love, light prevails, you are safe. Sometimes you will need to enter the darkness to retrieve a victim. Then you will need to watch your back. I think the true power of the light issues from the eyes. I always look first at a person's eyes. It reveals everything for me.
I am minded now of one G. Jampolsky, "Love is letting go of fear" He tells of going into a cell with a madman. Seems love found a way.
Love to all, ed.

Yes I look at the eyes too, you really can see the soul there, sometimes the beauty is too much. But I am not sure evil is always apparent in the eyes, other than a guardedness, but sometimes it can seem beautiful, seductive.

Of course we don't have the advantage of seeing the eyes on the internet, we have to rely on many things, clues, intuition, feelings (not the same as intuition), and so on.

I have known many madmen, and women, some theoretically very dangerous, knife wielding and suchlike. They are just afraid, as you say. A bit of love and a hug and they all turn into pussycats. I used to work in a house with a number of people with 'challenging behaviours', quite disturbed and sometimes violent people. A calm person walking in, and peace would descend.A little love goes a long way.

Ah. Beautiful evil. Evil masquerading as good. Good flowing out of evil. It makes my head swim - no pun intended. I certainly know that actions often have unexpected consequences. That's why intent is so important. But evil consequences can arise out of good intent and vice versa.

The old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions can have more than one meaning. Usually the 'good intentions' are things we meant to do but didn't. But I also think it points out that we often get caught up in things we don't fully understand, act without sufficient knowledge and produce a bad outcome. Not that I believe a person is sent to hell for trying to do the right thing and failing. I don't believe that at all.

Have you noticed how much intolerance and hate is inside so many teachers and ministers? I often wonder if they realize it or are so self-righteous that they truly don't recognize it in themselves.

The eyes have been called the windows to the soul. I have always thought that was lovely. I'm sure all of you have beautiful eyes.

H

Mine are blue ,Hypatia but I would not trust that, especially as you cannot actually verify it! I've a strong feeling any one of us could open to "evil" at any time. In fact, and I have never admitted this to anyone before, I have felt its presence, a pair of spooky "eyes" just waiting for a weak moment on my part. On the other hand there is the term "necessary evil." I have used the metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly at the Med.Garden before,nothing new about using that. Here I might propose we put ourselves into the caterpillar's many "shoes." There is room for all of us! How would we feel when dissolution time came in the pupa? I think abbi , well all of you, noted how "evil" can wax strong, allures one with its power over others,(the selfish gene?) That's another line of enquiry. I wonder now is it a case of balance. moderation in all things, even "evil!" I have recorded elsewhere on h2g2 my concerns about the relative "evil" of our present pursuit, but I have also said elsewhere to friends it will get us there, i.e. to the butterfly.
Get thee behind me Satan, and keep your f***ing distance, and I use that expression only on very special occasions. I hope our lovely little garden is not now pollute. I love you all, ed.

Well I lovingly wrote a fairly lengthy post this afternoon, and then it fell into cyberspace, lost forever.

I will try again, may not have quite the same fluidity though!

I think while we all agree that evil exists, perhaps it would be well not to dwell too long on any particular aspect of polarity. Because that is what it is.

I believe it is love that lies at the centre, that pulls everything together, that creates the one. As far a duality goes my view would be that at one end lies fear and at the other excitement. Because either of these can pull us out of the moment, into some kind of fantasy or comparison, some belief that we must judge a situation, that we are ever in a position to do so.

I do not think that evil is the opposite of love, but it can draw us only when we leave that centre and find ourselves in duality. A desire to control, to manipulate, to create some sort of outcome without trust, to get as high as a kite, will guarantee the opposite also.

Standing in love the tempest can rage around us. We may feel disrupted, unsettled, but to view things from this place can be the most powerful yet gentle feeling of all.

I believe disillusion/dissolution is a practice one must live out moment to moment. Perhaps rather than changing from the caterpillar to the butterfly we change from ice to free flowing water, maybe even steam. But we can always change back again, if we forget ourselves.

Your post is a great relief to me,momenta. I thought my last had over- stepped, especially when I came back to no response in the evening. It looked stark. I came offline and my whole body trembled. This was how close Old Satan felt, to use that idiom? (not sure that is the right word, this happens to me sometimes.)
I find myself in warm agreement with your words and see a summit not too far off. The view already looks awe-inspiring. But we can never count on that can we?
In the Love we share, ed.

"we change from ice to free flowing water, maybe even steam. But we can always change back again, if we forget ourselves."

I believe we do forget parts of ourselves sometimes.
I like the water metaphor in this instance too.
I even feel less solid at times than others.

I also think balance is a huge key.
The balance in the temperature of water is a good one also!
It is still h20 but has many forms.
We absorb different things or are absorbed by some like the qualities of water.

Water is a common sign for the subconcious.
It is very important in dreams.
It is what we are made of and what we most need and it's transparent.

The same can be said for what things look like.
A different interior can wear the same mask.
Or the same interior a different mask.

Like traits people have are all in the balance.
You could be frugal to one but stingy to another.
You could be reserved to one and unfriendly to another.
You could be tacful to one but evasive to another.
You can be generous to a fault.
Positive to a fault.
All a matter of balance.

That saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
It mystified me for decades.
I learned the two things mentioned about the saying plus the meaning-
We do not always know what is best because just like people any given person or situation only the tip of the iceberg is readily seen.

Water again!

Referring back to my sort of subconscious wavering over a word,in this case "idiom" It occured to me I could have used "idiot" What sort of Satan thinks he can ever get away with it? No, I come back to momenta's point that "he" is,in my own words, a projection of our own warped, limited,less than infinite creativity. He is a phantasm which will disappear in a "puff of smoke" when mankind as a whole truly opens.
What does that make me in my previous post? No wonder I wavered!

Still something to be careful with I feel. Not to assume idiocy of, because which of us cannot be a complete idiot given half a chance? I know I can!

Yes, when mankind truly wakes and sees that in reality we are all one, then evil can never have power again. That when we hurt another we hurt ourselves. I'm sure it comes out of duality, the knowledge of good and evil. In a way a return to Oneness is a return to the freedom of innocence, but also reality, imo at least. However, I wonder how far away that is?

I believe it is our job to perfect ourselves, to free ourselves from fear and expectation. Like a pebble in the pond the clearer we are the further the ripples go.

A little note to you all. I will be away for a few days, so keep my place for me please, and take care of yourselves.

My dreams used to include water - rivers and lakes, often at floodstage. And I swam a lot in my dreams, underwater but could breathe persectly well. And I piloted a boat quite often in my dreams. When the rivers were high I was afraid to swim, afraid of being pulled into the current. But I seldom dream about water these days. Is that good or bad?

Be safe Momenta and hurry back.

I love dreams, Hypatia. I've had a few very meaningful ones. Those ones always seem to have a special quality, and stay with you for ages. I've had one where a storm is raging and I'm stood on a jetty watching the splendour of it all, although it is quite dark. Suddenly I am swept away , I cannot swim and would be hard-pushed to in that foment. I decide, this is it , but suddenly I am bouyed up and carried almost in a circle back to the jetty and placed perfectly back on my feet. It makes me think now of the way a penguin bobs out of the sea onto a rock. It made me think I must have a charmed life, certainly a guardian angel.
I think your dream, swimming under water and yet breathing shows you are very capable of deep thought, very adaptable and well able to transpose your finds back to those on dry land. Pilot a boat? didn't you set up this meditation garden which here has fluid spirituality.
If you seldom dream of water these days, what do you dream of?
Abbi is away too I hear. I shall be here, it seems permanently now. I work alone anyway in my own monastery garden. I have to admit it will be time for reflection and pause. I hope you wil find time to drop by to keep me sustained, Hypatia. Much love, ed.

Hi ed. What do I dream about lately? Buildings. We're building a new library and I dream about that a lot. And meetings. Probably because these things are on my mind so much in RL.

Isn't it interesting how we visit the same places over and over in our dreams, but they aren't real places? They are as familiar as our RL locations though.

I jog in my dreams without getting tired. I wonder if that has a similar meaning to swimming underwater? Please tell me that you know about dreams. I started another conversation about dreams, but it has piddled out. I don't remember now where I put it.....maybe in the dining hall.

I'll be around this weekend. I'll be in and out since I have some gardening of the real variety to do.

Hi Hypatia, I maybe mad but I'm trying desperately not to distinguish what we're doing here from R.L. I certainly continue living it when I'm offline. It seems so important to me.
I am not qualified in any way. Working 30yrs. in a lovely garden on my own I have plenty of time to think. I'm very lucky to have landed where I am. Immediately, I think of my dream!!
I think dreams are the messengers of the pure love that resides in the very heart of us. Their purpose is to convey that potential to us.
It is not that easy to interpret them because they are relative to how much we fall short of the pure love. Thus they are always specific to the person. It is up to them to get the message. Pure love is infinitely patient. I think that is why we get recurring themes. When they change, as in your case I think it is a sure sign we have grown and a new challenge is ahead.
There are all sorts of dreams but we can rarely take them literally. I reckon you agree, we are dealing with symbols, which can play havoc with one's reasoning. I think the literal comes in when they are prophetic warnings. Very kind of pure love, don't you think? Just goes to show that pure love is not ruled by time!!
I also have come to the conclusion that what is taking place in everyday life somehow runs parallel to our spiritual life and that is why it gets woven in the dream.
What then are you building dear Hypatia? Much love, ed.

Hmmm... this is a serious remark, so please forgive me for bursting in...

I have only briefly skimmed this conversation, and it struck me that there was a lot of "knowing the infinite" - either explicitly or implicitly expressed... which is a bit incongrous considering both the initial perspectives on scientia and fluidity... and the repeated emphasis on the "good" universe...

so here's my bit - did it strike any of you that the basic nature of the universe (ourselves included) could as well be described as evil? That all that moves it is power? That the world is ruthless and uncaring, and i/we am/are just another feather floating to pond's end? That the world is too big for, and we will neve understand its mysteries? That there could be joy in this perspective - that we will never be non-dual, that we will never know whether we really know or not? Behold the dark unknown - love it and despair!

-- db

Hi db. Welcome to the discussion.

An observation of nature could give rise to the belief that the world is indeed ruthless and uncaring, as you say. And the history of mankind during the 20th Century certainly makes it look like whatever force controls the universe - if there is one - is either evil or on an extended vacation.

Before I continue I'd like to say that the members of this conversation have something in common. We're all seekers. We do not presume to understand the infinite. We take our personal experiences and our intuitions and try to make sense of them. Each of us receive tiny pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. If we're lucky we fit two or three pieces together now and then. Sometimes one of my pieces will fit into oneof yours. But we never see the entire picture. We simply don't have that perspective.

If there is a single nature rather than a dual one, and if that nature is evil, then why does good exist at all? Wouldn't a single nature be neither? It would just 'be'. It's possible that our creative force is both. A coin with two sides but still one coin.

Continuing with this analogy, if good is the 'head' of the coin and evil is the 'tail' it is difficult to view both of them at the same time. You can turn the coin on it's side and glimpse both sides, but you can't really see either.

The coin is given to us to spend. That's it's purpose. The coin provides for our needs, keeps us alive. But we have to accept the entire coin. We can't just take the 'head'. We can try to keep the 'head' turned up in our change purse; when we take it out we can present it witht he 'head' visible and the 'tail' hidden; we can polish the 'head ' side of the coin and leave the 'tail' dull. But the 'tail' is there. Without it there is no coin.

This is getting long, but hang in there with me gang. Concerning nature. We are all inspired by nature and draw conclusions from it about our place in the universe. Let's take an event that is seemingly random and cruel. A sea turtle lays her eggs on the beach and then abandons them. The baby turtles hatch and begin a trek to the sea. About one in a thousand will actually make it and live long enough to lay eggs herself. Is this the force of evil destroying 999 of the turtles or is it the force of good preserving one to continue the cycle?

I can't speak for anyone except myself, but I know I have a dual nature. I have experienced the power of both light and dark. Whether there are two distinct, independent forces in the universe or just one with two manifestations, I don't know. The latter is more logical. Having struggled with the concept of evil for decades, I am learning (on a personal level) not to fight it as much as recognize it and then deal with it. The dark is there inside of me as much as the light is. I'm not going to banish it, but I can choose not to let it rule me.

One last comment. db spoke about a joy in accepting that we don't know and never will. That sounds simple but is very profound. To achieve peace of mind we have to turn loose of our attachments. And one of the things humans are most attached to is the desire to know and understand and to be 'right'. Admitting that we don't know and never will is liberating. It opens the doors and windows of a musty cottge and lets the fresh air blow through. I know personally that when I finally accepted this simple concept my life became better and I think I became better - more forgiving, less judgmental, less concerned with outcomes.

ed made a comment I'd like to respond to also...about this being real life. I started thinking about that. The friends I've made online are becoming closer to me in a way than the people I interact with in person. Because I'm not embarrassed to talk about things that are important to me. In that sense, this has the potential of becoming more real. Anyway, I love you all and appreciate the opportunity I have here to learn and grow with you.

H

Here is the link to the conversation on dreams if any of you are interested in discussing this subject.

F1732242?thread=384687&latest=1

H

Allow me to clarify myself just a *little* bit..

You see, when i meant the the basic nature of the universe *might as well be evil*, i meant to say that Life, the Universe and Everything (me included) might as well be evil as good. I meant that good and evil are simply a matter of personal preference, and the Universe works just as fine if it's a dark lonely unfriendly place as if it's Shangri-La. There was no personal bitterness of experience in that statement.

I DO think that the turtle example was pointless: i for one do not think that there was any good or evil operating to destroy the 999 or save the 1 - it's simply the way the universe operates, in that it doesn't care. It could as well have been 999 saved and 1 dead. Good for the 1(999). Bad for the 999(1). Oh well.

Let me put my point another way: i don't want the dark side of me to rule me, but i don't want the light side of me to do so either!! I simply enjoy the interplay, consequences be damned. Me no care, same as Universe...