A Conversation for The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Writing Workshop: A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 1

MotDoc, Temporarily Exiled to Tartu, Estonia

Entry: The Hapsburgs to Charles V - A2048690
Author: MotDoc, Head of the Holy Order of the Knights of the Angered Smiley <grr> - U208372

I’m not sure if this kind of thing is interesting to other people. Let me know if you fall asleep or not.

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 2


MotDoc - I'll get back to you once I've had a wee snooze to build up my strength smiley - sleepysmiley - rofl

smiley - cheers

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 3


Hi MotDoc smiley - puffsmiley - cdouble

I see what you mean!

No, seriously... it's good. Just a bit tortuous to find your way through all those family names and countries. You really a) a map and b) a family tree - neither of which are available in h2g2 smiley - doh

Here's some comments to be going on with though, which might make help make it a bit clearer:


There are 2 *back and forth*s in the 3rd sentence, which reads a bit oddly.

Albert 1: Was it the Empire of Rome he didn't get? I had to read back to work out if there was only one Emperor you'd mentioned... so perhaps add <...of Rome>?

<...the dynasty took further damages...> - <...the dynasty was further damaged, ...>

- smiley - huh which one? Emperor of Rome again?

Albert V: - ?

<...as was as the Duchy fo Austria> - <...as well as the Duchy of Austria>

What's the difference between a Duchy and an Archduchy? smiley - erm

That's your lot for now smiley - winkeyesmiley - evilgrin

smiley - cheers

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 4

MotDoc, Temporarily Exiled to Tartu, Estonia

I added a footnote to help explain the Imperial thing. It will get more complex in the second half, when the Austrian Empire comes in (and the numbers all reset again).
Let’s see...duchies and archduchies.
The OED gives the following defenitions:
Duchy: The territory or dominions of a duke; a dukedom.
Archduchy: The territory of an archduke or archduchess.
Yet another reason why the OED isn’t the best practical sources of information. But when I looked up archduke, I got:
Archduke: A prince of the imperial family of Austria.

Note: Formerly this title was assumed by the rulers of
Lorraine, Brabant, Austria, etc. It is now appropriated
to the descendants of the imperial family of Austria
through the make line, all such male descendants being
styled archduke, and all such female descendants

So apparently Austria is an archduchy because it is ruled by an archduke, and he is an archduke because he is of the ruling family of Austria. QED. smiley - erm

Come to think of it, I’m not even sure how Austria became an archduchy. I will look into this.
-MotDoc smiley - martiansmile

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 5


Clear as mud smiley - laugh

smiley - cheers

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 6

MotDoc, Temporarily Exiled to Tartu, Estonia

OK, here's my latest findings:
1) According to www.hereditarytitles.com:

The title, Duke, (from Latin Dux, a leader) is the highest in the British Peerage. As there are no British "princes" outside the blood-royal, so pre-eminent in dignity is the ducal title that each royal prince, shortly after attaining his majority (age 21) is usually, but not always, created a Duke; the titular style of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy. Thus, Prince Henry, son of King George V, was created Duke of Gloucester, Prince Andrew, son of Queen Elizabeth II, was created Duke of York.

Since the title Duke signified Sovereign status (William the Conqueror was Duke of Normandy) it was not adopted until 1337, when Edward III conferred the Dukedom of Cornwall on his eldest son, the Black Prince. This was followed by Henry Duke of Lancaster in 1351. The first subject to receive a dukedom who was not a member of the royal family, nor one nearly connected, was Sir William de la Pole, Marquess of Suffolk, who was created Duke of Suffolk in 1448.

A Duke is styled Most Noble (or less formally His Grace), and by the Sovereign in public instruments, Our right trusty and right entirely beloved cousin, with the addition of and counselor when a member of the Privy Council.

2) Of course the 'Dukes of Austria' weren't called 'duke': they were called Herzog. Likewise 'archduke' was actually Erzherzog. Maybe Erzherzog is a title that has no real equivalent in English and Archduke is a rough translation from the prefix archi-, meaning:

\Ar"chi-\ [L., archi-, Gr. 'archi-, a prefix which is
from the same root as 'a`rchein to be first, to begin; 'archh
the first place, beginning; 'archo`s chief. Cf. AS. arce-,
erce-, OHG. erzi-, G. erz-.]
A prefix signifying chief, arch; as, architect,
archiepiscopal. In Biol. and Anat. it usually means
primitive, original, ancestral; as, archipterygium, the
primitive fin or wing.

-Webster's Dictionary, from www.hyperdictionary.com

3) Finally, from the Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.com) comes this information:

Traditional ranks among royalty, peers, and nobles are rooted in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Although they vary over time and between geographic regions (for example, one region's prince might be equal to another's grand duke), the following is a fairly comprehensive list that provides information on both general ranks and specific differences.


Emperor, rules an empire
King, rules a kingdom (kings of independent (sovereign) kingdoms are ranked above kings of imperial kingdoms)
(Archduke, a unique rank used only by the Habsburgs in Austria)
Grand Duke, ruling a grand duchy


electing Prince, Elector, Kurfürst in German, electing the Emperor
Duke, who rules a duchy
sovereign Prince, Fürst in German, ruling a Principality
Prince, Prinz in German, junior members of a royal or princely family


Marquess / Margrave, and the German Landgraf & Pfalzgraf, theoretically the ruler of a margravate
Count / Earl, theoretically the ruler of a county
Viscount (vice-count) and Baron, in Britain the lowest rank of the peerage, had tax- exempted estates, and often official non-hereditary positions

This all tends to confirm my original statement that the reason Austria has an archduke rather than a duke following 1457 is that basically they declare themselves archdukes and are too powerful to be opposed. Plus Fredrick was Emperor at the time and probably had the power to elevate any nobles (although I am not entirely clear on the powers of the Emperor at this point in history).

Told you I would give an answer F/b!

-MotDoc smiley - martiansmile

A2048690 - The Hapsburgs to Charles V

Post 7


smiley - wow

That's certainly an answer! smiley - laugh You could do a whole guide entry based on that lot: I'll leave that one to you I think smiley - whistle

So basically, the Austrian royals invented Archdukes and Archduchesses?

*Wishes she'd never asked now...*smiley - somersault

smiley - cheers

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