h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It seems to me that all religions / belief systems are all just as equally valid. If you believe in it, it's "True" for you, and if you don't believe in it, it becomes "False". This is easy to agree with in principle, but when you apply it to your own (or my own!!) view's, it is harder to swallow.
What do you Wiccans / Christians / Satanists / Buddhists / Fundamentalists / Atheists , e.t.c., e.t.c., e.t.c., e.t.c., e.t.c., .e.t.c... think about this?

Hullo there, Lord Muck!

Sorry to be so long getting back to you, but I am on battery power only due to a bad power cord, so my time online is rationed.

I reply to you as a wiccan, but also as an atheist [see thread on wicca and atheism], so my slant on your question may be somewhat different than most. hee hee

In my mind wicca provides a 'way of being' more than a belief system. Many of the practices of Taoism also have appeal to me for the same reasons. As I dont really think we are here for any 'purpose' or that there is a higher concious force that has set things in motion, 'true' and 'false' in relation to what people believe becomes somewhat meaningless. My standard example is that of gravity: gravity works, whether or not you 'believe' in it. It is not consious; it does not have any intent. It just is. Period. I feel the same about the other 'forces' that most regard as part of their religious belief.

The problem is, as is pointed out in other conversations in this forum, is when those holding certain beliefs feel the need to impose them on others, or set others aside if they do not share in the 'approved' beliefs. I shudder to think of the many, many places throughout history where some have imposed their beliefs on others brutally and bloodily. Even more subtle methods of discrimination against those who do not share the prevalent viewpoint, while not as vicious, are equally reprehensible, IMHO.

And so, for me, it is not about which belief system is valid. They all are, and none are. What is, is. What my dim consiousness permits me to understand will not change how the powers of the universe work. I may tap into them, just as I tap into fire, electricity, and so on. I do not need to convince others to share my view of life. I only require that they not insist I follow theirs.

If I may offer another example from my personal life:
My late husband was a christian [not a practicing christian, but had been raised in that belief system]. I have been an atheist all my adult life. When our children were born, he expressed an interest in getting them baptized. I had no problem agreeing. As I did not believe that what he was doing had any significance; it was a harmless ritual, why object? I told him I would not make the arrangements or participate in the event, but he was perfectly free to do as he wished about it. And these statements were made in a kindly, not petulant way.

As it turned out, he never got around to it. My four adult children remain unbaptized to this day. Should any of then decide to become christians [which one may be doing] they will be baptized at that point. Oh, and btw, if I am invited to the ceremony, I will go--just as I would go to a wedding or funeral of a friend or relative.

Most Wiccans, while they may not feel exactly as I do, share my feelings about not imposing their beliefs on others. Wiccans do not proselytize; we do not try to 'convert' others. We only answer questions when asked. And our hope is that other religions will offer the same forbearance to others.

There are many paths to wisdom and peace.

bright blessings

}:=8

Hello there, bluDragon. I stopped by your place to see if your computer was better, and ran across this little number.And read a few other of your postings on atheism as well.

I just wanted to add one thing to what you said. The Western religions say that God created man in his image. But, in fact, it is my belief that man created God in his own image, and furthermore that it was done consciously and with full awareness that it was all a parable.

I believe that long, long ago, the "intellectuals" of the day understood the universe to be basically the way you and I understand it. In other words, there IS a power out there that unites us all (and all the birds and animals and trees and rocks, etc etc, as well). But that power, in fact, doesn't really give a hoot what happens to us, because it will go on the same with or without us. But that whole idea is a bit of an abstract concept for the largely uneducated populace of the day to grasp. And so storytellers made up little colorful fables to tell people (much as we tell children fairy tales now) the truths of the universe in a way that they could relate to, in a way that was more personal and less abstract.

And I would like to believe that at the time, these storytellers didn't know the havoc they were about to let loose on the world as a result. They didn't know that wars would be fought and populations destroyed over these fables.

It wasn't until more modern times (within the last few thousand years) that people began devising these "fables" with political intent.

Or at least that's how I see it. Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't know for certain.

Peace and love,
bp

hullo, billypilgrim, [and lord Muck, too if you are around]

I had this lovely response almost all written. Quite intellectual an' everything. And I forgot to watch my battery, and it got too low, and it all froze from lack of power.

So my brilliant ideas are lost forever.

This is an example of why my postings may seem a bit fragmented right now.

I will get back to you on this when I am operating at full power--and my computer is too--. teehee

}:=8

Once again, wisdom is forced to take a backseat to technology. ;-( (I must admit, that sad little elf IS quite charming, and I will miss him once the holidays are past).

Still, no harm done, and perfectly understood. I sometimes feel a bit fragmented myself....

I'll be waiting on your response, m'dear. And until then, to borrow one of your own favorite expressions,

bright blessings.

Oops, I screwed up the sad little elf. Let't try again.

I'm a lot tired and my brain is a bit fried, but let's see what I can drag out of it, Ok?

My personal take on the 'fables' thing is that I doubt that the 'intellectuals' set out with the idea that the universe doesn't give a damn, and then tried to explain it all. I think rather the original fables were an attempt to explain what they couldn't understand. That isn't to say understanding didn't come later, and it's likely, I think, that the fables of the time were then 'shoehorned' into the new understanding. That's a human failing I've noted. We seem to hate throwing things out; we'd rather just patch them up or change them.

Of course all of this about 'explaining' and 'understanding' also depends on the mindset of the people at the time. As evidenced today we have several 'views' on the world. One view is that we are the pinnacle of creation and it's all here just for us. Another is that we're equal in creation to everything else. And yet another is that we're insiginificant specks who mean nothing. Obviously the fables you come up with to explain things, and how you go about achieving knowledge, is going to be biased based on your world view.

Though I get the idea that if you go with the 'insignificant specks' theory, you're unlikely to bother to achieve much. After all, what would be the point?

Old Wolf

Actually I can't see how my belief system can be valid for anyone but me. I've spent many years reading about various religions and philosophies, trying to understand them, and see if they're "any good to me". Slowly I've built up a belief system that suits me, with bits 'stolen' from many philosophies and religions.

I fell into Wicca through reading several books on the topic and doing a fairly good 'correlation' between the belief system expounded in those books and the one I'd 'developed'.

Sure, I'm Wiccan, but in no way could I expect another Wiccan to just pick up my belief system, no matter how close it seems to theirs, and just run with it.

Actually, I can't see how /any/ belief system can be anything other than valid for just you if taken to the lowest level of detail.

Old Wolf

Hmmmm. I never said we're insignificant specks who mean nothing. I said the universe "doesn't give a hoot." There is no father-figure godhead up there looking out for us. But we are anything BUT insignificant to ourselves and to the universe.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the universe doesn't much care what we do, because it will go on regardless. But what we do, and what we achieve (or fail to) makes an incredible difference to US. Let's put it this way: if we blow up all of life as we know it, the world will still go on in some form or another (because energy can't be destroyed or created, only transformed). But WE will be terribly upset by the whole thing.

There is great power in the universe, and it unites us all. There is magic and wonder and joy, as well as fear and sorrow. We are all a part of it, and everything we do effects everything else. And it is up to each of us to make our own lives meaningful.

As for the intellectuals: philosophies and religions throughout time all come down to similar concepts, if you take away the colorful details. Think of it this way: Jesus told parables to make people understand the works of God. He KNEW they were parables (as opposed to historical fact) when he told them. Why would he be unique in religious history? People tell tales to explain the mysteries of life. Modern people are very literal-minded. In older times, every little group of people had its own storyteller. And people understood these "tall tales" were not mean to be taken literally, but were colorful descriptions of serious subjects. Much like we tell our children about Santa Claus as the personification of the joys of giving.

Does that make a little more sense?

Sorry, I've not been around for a while but I've been to Glastonbury, and Cornwall for the "Millenium Apocalypse Extravaganza".

Unfortunately, I agree with mostly everything that's been said. (I say unfortunately, because the point of the original question was to provoke a bit of banter and drag the fundamentalists out of the woodwork...HAIL ERIS!).

The only thing I will say about the stories / fables thing is that, in the end they are all good tales, and that's it!!. That's all you can say because it doesn't matter what they are about, it's the reaction and action they provoke in you that matters. If they don't cause you to change the way you think or behave then they are useless for you anyway.

Please feel free to shout at me if you don't agree.

Well, Lord Muck, I am quite envious of your trip to Glastonbury and the like for a Millenium Apocalypse Extravaganza. Sorry to have missed that. erm...dont spose I can plan on catching the next one...no, guess not.

I gotta agree that what you said about the stories/fables is a pretty good perspective. But it's probably because of my atheistic orientation to begin with.

At any rate, we seem to be a quite mellow bunch in this forum. Some variant interpretations, but pretty much it's 'live an' let live' around here. But, I don't know if the Christians have noticed us. [uh, mebbe that's not what you meant by fundamentalists, tho...]

Now if you want some activity, check out the recent article on Satanism http://www.h2g2.com/A230211. There seems to be a bit of discussion going on there. [an' I must confess that I started one of 'em]

bb
}:=8