h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

My thoughts are a little jumbled right now but bear with me. I've noticed in forums on this page, and in other forums around the internet, a lot of stuff that basically says how rigid religion X is but how open Wicca is, or how Wicca doesn't have X problem.
I'm curious as to how much of the 'problem' with some religions is the people, not the religion. If you want to look at it this way: most religions seem to have the basic idea of 'be nice to others'. Then it seems to me people get involved. Some are good people who go out there and truly /do/ try to be nice to others. Others however, decide that your way of being nice isn't right and you should really try their way. And so we get conflict. Often in both sides of the conflict their religion says 'be nice to people'....ironic?
So what I'm saying is it often seems to me it's not the /religion/ that's the problem, so much as the people.
So what does this have to do with Wicca? Wicca (as I see it, being a solitary) isn't so organised that a few people with a lust for power or enough power to actually enforce the 'you're not being nice enough' rules can 'warp' the 'be nice' type rule. They can't build these huge structures around the simple concepts underlying the 'religion' of Wicca.
The other possibility is perhaps wicca, because of it's nature, tends to attract those less interested in building little 'power empires'?
Anyway, those are my ravings for now. Thoughts anyone? I promise to try to be more organised next time.
*hands around the Peppermint tea*

hmmmm....what interesting points
and how good that peppermint tea smells! Thank you!

[takes large cup of yummy peppermint tea]

now, lets think about some of the points you raise...
1. wiccans frequently state that wicca does not have the same problems with 'rigidity' or being a closed set of beliefs as other religions do.
2. most religions start with 'be nice to each other' as part of their basic premise
3. religions seem to run into trouble when people are involved with other people and have conflicts about who is 'right'
4. wicca seems to avoid problems because it isnt as organized as other religions, has simple concepts, and/or attracts those who dont want to be 'leader'.
[Please correct me if I have misstated any of the above]

First, I agree with #2 AND with #3: people who want to be 'right' frequently forget about the 'nice' part.

Numbers #1 and #4 also hold true, but with some qualifiers. Wiccan is broadly based; it has no hierarchy, no official organizational structure. It also does not prosyletize or attempt to 'convert' people. You have to ASK to find out about wicca. And finally there is no 'dogma' such as some other religons have. Nothing you MUST 'believe or get excommunicated from' wicca, or 'punished' in some kinda wiccan afterlife. Because of the above, many of the common problems of other religions' organization simply do not occur.

However, there are some pagan traditions that practice a more formalized version of earth magick. They have covens that are more organized, initiation ceremonies, proscribed rituals and beliefs. I suspect [actually, I KNOW] that these groups have the same problems that other organized religions do. And for the reasons you mention; whenever people get involved there are conflicts between people. And there are those who ARE interested in building their own 'power empires' who are attracted to those aspects of wicca and paganism.

Now this doesnt mean they are bad and solitary wiccans are better, only that wiccans are human too. [big grin]
Some prefer organization, even in wicca. And if that is what works for them, there is room for that in wicca, too. Indeed, some of the first groups in neo-paganism were highly ceremonial in nature. And they also had some very 'strong' [wink, wink] leaders

I personally find the strength of wicca in it's attunment to the rhythms and powers of nature and the universe, and it's flexibility. So I agree wholeheartedly with your statement about the attraction of the simple concepts that form the basis of wicca.

So maybe my response is rambling too, but the issue is still an interesting one.

[settles back and sips tea, waiting for other comments]
}:=8

*grins*You stated it quite well. Better than I did. Just sortof off to the side, have you ever read any Terry Pratchett? The reason I ask was your comment on leaders. My favourite comment from one of his books was:
"Witches don't have leaders, but Granny Weatherwax was the most respected of the leaders they didn't have." Which I think fits quite well here.
Now......what was I actually going to say?
*muses as he sips his tea and puts his feet up on the edge of the verandah*
I spent a lot of years working out my own philosophy/relgion/callitwhatyouwill just by reading, taking a bit from here, and a bit from there. None of the 'major' religions held my interest, they were mostly at odds with what I believed, even if it was just the organisation rather than the basic tenets of the religion which was at fault. I looked at Taoism, Zen, philosophy in general, many Christian religions and so on, and didn't find what I was 'after'. Though truth to tell I was more curious than searching. Then Wicca came into my field of research and I was hooked. Most of the 'general' stuff that Wiccan's believe slotted neatly into the belief system I'd built up and the fact that you could /be/ a solitary, that you didn't have to go to church on day X or perform this ceromony on day Y suited me nicely. I prefer to live my religion/belief system rather than just do it on Day X at place Z.
I think I was attracted to the flexibility and the recognition that you don't have to have a fancy building to 'worship' in. To me the world is a damn good cathedral and why build another one that can't hope to match it?
I think I've started rambling again. Sorry, work just got me and drove the point I was trying to make from my mind. Next tim.e

No, I haven't read any Terry Pratchett, but I skimmed some of the titles at amazon.com and I think I will take a look. Do you have a recommendation to start with?

I used to read a lot of sf and then a lot of fantasy, but lately I have been reading mostly non-fiction. That is, when I'm not on h2g2.

My journey to wicca was similar to yours. I still find many things about Zen very attractive. Especially the writings of Thich Nhat Hanh. Have you read 'The Miracle of Mindfulness'? that is one of my favorites. Or, 'Being Peace'.

bright blessings
blu
}:=8

I'd avoid Terry Pratchett's first few books until you find you can 'get into him', as they're really just takeoffs. It's only around Mort (the fourth book) that he /really/ kicks into gear and the stories become good as well as entertaining.
While they're all 'discworld' books there are a lot of 'series' in it.
The Witches Series, is worth it in this order: Wyrd Sisters, Witches Abroad, Lords and Ladies, Masquerade, Carpe Jugulum.
The chars are 'stereotypical' witches, at least at first look, but you'll find a lot of deeper stuff in there as you progress.

No, I've yet to read that. Our library is supposed to have all the Zen 'classics' but they're always off the shelf when I look . Mostly I've read treaties on Zen, oh and Chuck Norris' book on it, which after reading all the other stuff was /very/ well worth it.

Thanks for the Pratchett titles. I will look for the 'Witches' series.

Have you ever hear of 'Coven' by Steven William Rimmer? He writes some interesting stuff about practitioners of the old ways in modern Britain. Not great literature, but interesting.

He is connecte to Alchemy Mindworks, the Canadian software company. They write some really good software [like GIF Construction Set], and also happen to be pagan. Unfortunately they are currently only writing for windoze [and I love my Macintosh]. But I use Virtual PC if I need to use windoze-only software.

What they DO have is a great Pagan screensaver. They have an older Mac version, and an updated windoze version. If you havent heard of it, go to http://www.mindworkshop.com/alchemy/alchemy.html and look for the Pagan Daybook II http://www.mindworkshop.com/alchemy/pagan2.html Their website is also very cool.

If you want to read more on Zen, I highly recommend that you invest a modest amount [$12.00 US]in 'Miracles of Mindfulness'. It is a simple, elegant, short paperback, and a very specific book about the practice of Zen. Treat yourself and buy a copy.

And, of course, it is totally compatible with the practice of wicca.


bb
}:=8

Hello I thought I'd butt in as I've just re-read Pratchett's Small Gods - I'd forgotten how good it was. It isn't as hilarious as most of his books but is very good about religion in general. Here's a rather good (but a bit long) quote that I've been waiting to show someone -

`Life in this world' he said, ' is, as it were, a sojourn in a cave. What can we know of reality? For all we see of the true nature of existance is, shall we say, no more than bewildering and amusing shadows cast upon the inner wall of the cave by the unseen blinding light of absolute truth, from which we may or may not deduce some glimmer of veracity, and as troglodyte seekers of wisdom can only lift our voices to the unseen and say, humbly, "Go on, do Deformed Rabbit...it's my favourite."'

He's got a bit of a thing about shadow plays...and ripping off philosophy.

well, then, I will definitely look into this Pratchett person...

sounds like someone I should know with all these recommendations.



}:=8

No, I've not heard of 'Coven' but it's going on my 'to find' list (that's getting really big right now )
When I get back to my graphical web-browser (I'm currently using a text-based one called Lynx), I'll look up the Alchemy one. Sounds cool. Though right now my screensaver is the seti@home one...
*scribbles down the Miracles of Mindfulness info quickly*Ooh, good. I'll look that one up first, I think. Wonder if our library has it (I'm a bit low dosh-wise right now).
You do realise wh at you're doing here don't you?

*Welcomes technoyokel aboard and hands over some mango tea*I love that quote. Actually he doesn't only rip off philosophy, he rips off anything and everything: movies, folklore, philosophy, politics, music, other fantasy...
Quite a busy fellow actually.