h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes lets only have art and culture that makes lots of money. The bourgoisie and the capitalists know whats best for us when it comes to art and culture.

Whoever thought Godwins Law would apply to a discussion about the arts (rolleyes>

Like the Nazis never did art I suppose. All that Wagner and architecture was about ....?

They really did a job killing off Bauhaus didn't they?

That would be the same Hermann Goerring that went on to become the biggest art thief in Europe then?

Where I think Arts funding is essential but paradoxically is used in an educational sphere (and thus should be labelled educational funding) is with community theatre.

Community theatre turns the arts argument on it's head. In community theatre the beneficiary is the performer not the audience member. Performance art can be an enabler, a social equaliser and an educator. I worked with a special needs group to put on a show. Three months of tense, argumentative, fractious rehearsals culminated in two nights of performance. One Downs Syndrome woman in particular caught my attention - all through rehearsals she'd been a pain in the arse, but the look on her face as she climbed a ramp and saw the audience was priceless. She gained so much confidence from the show that she was able to leave the care home and live on her own (with carer support). I believe she is now married. If I have only one worthwhile thing to look back on in my life, it will be my role in helping that woman to help herself.

Community theatre receives such a tiny fraction of arts money, but to my mind does a hugely disproportionate amount of good. Perhaps that's one reason why my ire is raised at wanky high art.

I don't want to get into some possibly irrelevant discussion that concentrates on the nazis. But I have seen documentaries which showed that the Nazi top bods loved their Mozart and Wagner etc. At one concentration camp they created an orchestra from the Jewish muscians brought there. Presumably the hardline top Nazis were so fixed in their mindset that a bit of traditional high art wasn't going to challenge anyone's mindset. They just got off on the tunes and the emotional feelings, that they channelled into their ideology.

But the Nazis like the Communists in Russia excerted great control on any new art that would possibly speak to the masses and challange thought processes about the status quo. So although I agree that excessive public funding of the arts leads to a lot of dross. I think some is desirable for really good stuff to allow it to grow. Much as a football club maybe funds a group of talented youngsters, and then maybe one or two, with real quality make it to the big time eventually.

The danger with public money being channeled into theatre is it can take on a particular bent. 7:84 benefited greatly from John McGrath's close links with Labour councillors and Trade Unions. Thus 7:84, whilst undoubtedly having artistic merit, became a political mouthpiece. Theatre can be a powerful outlet for dissenting political opinion, but would 7:84 have survived if it were reliant upon Tory funding? I think not.

Repertory theatres can and often do reflect their political masters in local govt. Compare and contrast Dundee Rep, Coventry Rep and the Yvonne Arnaud.

Your post is contradictory in this respect Fanny. Excessive State control through funding leads to politicisation of art but you say this is desireable to allow the good stuff to grow?

Hmm - should this go in the Arts thread or the Tattoo/Body art thread?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7039821.stm

An Australian performer who has had an ear grafted onto his forearm in the name of art has sparked controversy.

Gosh I don't quite believe that post, it sounds so capitalist and competative.

I do performance poetry and music stuff sometimes, and its actually not that difficult to do in somewhere like London. But I would never expect to make my living from it. And the pressure of getting bookings and doing stuff in some empty building I think adds to the ingenuity and quality. I do however completely value all forms of art and feel it enriches our culture. We should feel proud of it. You wouldn't believe how many Aussies there are now in London. And they are certainly not here for the weather. The ones I speak to say its because we have the best and most exciting stuff in the UK in terms of things like music and thatre. We should feel proud.

No I said we shouldn't have excessive state funding, because it leads to a lot of dross.

Who'd have thought anhaga's law would come up in a discussion of Art?

What this boils down to is SWL values Science more than Art (as is his right!), but refuses to recognize the somewhat arbitraryness of his decision.

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. Funding of the arts has grown to be grossly distorted in favour of vanity projects which play to a vanishingly small elite bunch of "but it's *art* dahlings". Real art is often under-funded if it's supported at all.

Now, I'm sure someone could point out that science funding is hardly equitable, but is *any* research truly wasted?

Besides which, does stupidity & ego-driven state funding in one field justify similar bad funding in every field?

"The Nazis certainly understood that art and culture were not useful things for the masses to have in their lives. "

Turn that statement round 180 degrees, and you may be nearer what historians call "the truth".

"Presumably the hardline top Nazis were so fixed in their mindset that a bit of traditional high art wasn't going to challenge anyone's mindset."

Maybe they USED the high arts as a TOOL to create their volksgemainschaft? After all, you need something to hold a community together, why not "traditional Germanic culture"?

"But I have seen documentaries"

Right. Glad you saw that documentary. Pity it was absolute carp. Did you see the one about Hitler being Himmler's psychic puppet? Or anything Channel 5 have ever made about the Nazis?

The Nazis thought art and culture where EXCEEDINGLY useful. Propaganda films were art (seen 'Triumph of the Will?' it's quite good), there were exhibitions showing why 'degenerate/Jewish/negro' art was inferior to Germanic high art. As has been mentioned, Goering was an art collector. Hitler recieved some original Wagner copy for his birthday.

Before you barge into a topic screaming 'NAZIS SAID THIS!!!' try reading up on the subject.

rtists for the Reich: Culture and Race from Weimar to Nazi Germany (J.L Clinefelter)
Hitler's National Community: Society and Culture in Nazi Germany (L. Pine)
The Third Reich in Power, 1933-1939 (one chapter) (RJ Evans)

If you want, I've got Evans on a shelf at home. You can have it for a fiver. Drop me a line on my PS!

Argh! "were", not "where"!

Preview is your friend...

Oh and wasn't Hitler an artist?

Incidentally, I once met a make-up artist* who fled Germany in 1935. In order to purchase art materials or exhibit in Germany, artists *had* to join the Nazi Party. Her father refused to do so and was "disappeared".

* You will rarely see Doris Day with bare arms in her films as she had huge dark freckles on her arms and had to use masses of pan stick to cover them. She used so much bleach that she was virtually bald and for films they actually wove wool into what remained of her hair

<>

That would be my area of complaint about current arts funding. Too much of the money goes to relatively few 'elite' institutions, a large proportion of which are based in London. Of that money that gets through to the provinces the same pattern is repeated. The actual amount we spend on arts isn't high compared to other wealthy western nations.

I'm sorry, I post a response to someone's misconceptions about Nazi culture and it gets Yikesed?

I'm sick of this place. "Oh no, someone's shown me up. Press the Yikes button!"

Some people here need to grow up.

This post has been removed.

What a joke.

Fanny, you're talking nonsense about the Nazis. I did have a post which illustrated the party's actual attitude towards culture, but the Mods seem to take offence at the word "carp".

I don't see the point hanging round in a forum where debate is censored to such a nonsensical level, so I'm off.

I'm pretty sure who the Yikser is and it's about time his motives and politics were looked at by TPTB.

"Besides which, does stupidity & ego-driven state funding in one field justify similar bad funding in every field?"

No, who said it did? We were saying that science has no tangible benefits either, but that your attitude towards science was different, and we were trying to understand that.

Oh well as psycorp has unsubbed there's no chance now for him to try posting that again. That's a shame because I'd be more than interested to learn more about the Nazi attitude to the arts. I find it incredible that that he can't find a way of posting it that doesn't get censored.

>>"Oh no, someone's shown me up. Press the Yikes button!"<<

And what's this supposed to mean???