h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Yes. I really do. Time and time again it's been found that offenders simply don't think about consequnces"

What I was asking was do you think 14 year olds don't understand that there are consequences to crime - ie that stabbing someone may well kill them and that even if it doesn't this is a crime which will lead to something happening to them. I doubt very much that at the point of stabbing they're going over the consequences in their head (even adults do things in a "blind fury" that they regret later) but I don't believe for a second that they don't understand that what they do has consequences.

"There a bizarre assumption that 'liberalists' are unconcerned about crime. I'm suggesting that they are so concerned as to not want to brush it under the carpet with knee-jerk quick fixes."

Interesting you say that because I am a "liberalist" and I reject the notion that liberalism=no punishment and no consequence for crime (instead I see it as balancing compassion and understanding with the need to control dangerous elements in society who threaten the lives and wellbeing on people in it) which is why I find it frustrating when I meet so many liberals who insist on sticking to the cliched conservative caricature of people who are afraid of the notion of punishment. We *must* have punishment otherwise we have crime without consequence which the experience of decades has taught up powerful and amoral people will take advantage of. What we must *not* do is confuse punishment with vengeance or wrath.

"Yes, but you're focussing on punishment. I'm not for a minute denying that offenders should not be punished."

I'm not "focusing on punishment", I'm merely mentioning it should be part of the consequences of committing a crime. In fact, I focus more on the rehabilitation aspect and separating potentially-good kids who've been led astray from the sociopaths who do the leading and treating them differently.

"I'm not for a minute denying that offenders should not be punished."

And yet you haven't mentioned it once as part of your proposals and when I mention it briefly, surrounded by ideas pertaining to rehabilitation and understanding of those merely led-astray, you accuse me of "focusing on punishment".

"This is not to say that we should be complacent about crime, nor about improving social conditions. Most crime is within deprived communities, and the poorer you are, the more likely to be the victim of crime. We the privileged should be striving to stop the cycle of crime and deprivation that are blighting thse communities."

I'd argue that we need to take measures to reduce crime *first* otherwise any attempts to improve communities can end up being a money-sink (which the rightwing will use as an excuse to condemn such public spending as "wasteful"). Before you can build a new public space for the community in a sink-estate you need to make sure that youth gangs aren't going to turn it into their own private fiefdom. Before you build that new kids' playpark you need to make sure vandals aren't going to tear it to bits within weeks of its going-up. Before you build that new community centre you need to make sure that local people aren't afraid to go out after dark. And, once you get these things going, communities might improve and crime might thusly drop itself and everyone's happy.

As far as I've understood it, this is much of the theory behind Labour's "Tough on cime, tough on the causes of crime" philosophy. Whilst I'll credit them with being better on both than the Conservatives, I'd say they've failed overall though.

>>What I was asking was do you think 14 year olds don't understand that there are consequences to crime

I am indeed saying that. It's true. There are various projects that work with young offenders to teach them to weigh up actions against consequences. They simply don't do it. Hard to believe, maybe - but true. It would take a little longer to explain *why* this happens - but it is a known and understood phenomenon.

>>>>"I'm not for a minute denying that offenders should not be punished."

>>And yet you haven't mentioned it once as part of your proposals and when I mention it briefly, surrounded by ideas pertaining to rehabilitation and understanding of those merely led-astray, you accuse me of "focusing on punishment".

OK - understood. (wasn't intending to trash you - just discussing) What I'm meaning is that punishing (eg) Mr Newlove's killers is necessary. I'm in absolutely no doubt about that. But what it won't do is to stop the next killing. Your ideas about working with the associates of such people - those who *might* commit violent acts unless diverted - is quite correct. But it's little to do with the punitive aspects...except to the extent that the punishment is hanging there as a potential consequence.

But isn't there an even smarter way of doing it? I doubt that you or I refrain from murder simply because we don't want to be punished. Why is that? How can we change the circumstances of others so that they too think as we do?

>>"I'm not for a minute denying that offenders should not be punished."

By the way...if anyone can unpick the logic in my sentence, you're doing better than me. Replace 'denying' with 'saying'.

>>I'd argue that we need to take measures to reduce crime *first* otherwise any attempts to improve communities can end up being a money-sink

The reality is that you need to do both together, of course. But the way it plays out is that the area you really have to attack is youth crime, so that low-level offending doesn't escalate into serious adult crime. The approaches that work here are welfare-based, not punishment.

I would that there were no age between three and three-and-twenty,
or that youth would sleep out the rest,
- for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting.

No not a quote from a previous thread started by Novo bemoaning current youth trends, a quote from William Shakespeare where a character was doing what we have come to know and love Novo for.

Zagreb, I wasnt setting up any straw men I was attempting to establisht he background from which I have drawn my conclusions. Iwhen i said put "ALL the blame on young people" It would have been better for me to have said "put the *entire* blame on young people" However there is a tendency to tar all youths with the same brush as evidenced by the "only two school hildren at a time" signs you see in shop windows occasionally.

SWL your argument that we shouldnt send young peopl on self esteem building trips beccause we still have crime is like saying lets not fund the NHS any longer because people are still dying.

Only this morning a senior police officer was agreeing with me (now there's proof that Im getting old!).

If we want better youths we are the ones that should be raising them better. I agree in part with you SWL, our efforts have fallen short but we are in this for our future and the future of generations that will follows us.

I think we should bring back national service, not to train people in specifically millitary disciplines but to give people a common view of discipline and what *we* are like as a society. The only reason I know doctors, police officers and solicitors socially is because of rugby. The majority of my friends and family only know such people because of professional reasons. we are becoming a divided society and we need something that will bring us together a bit. Give people who feel there at the bottom of the pile because they belong there an experience that proves they are no different to other people and that they capable of acheiving something.

I do this most days at work, though not normally in Benidorm, and despite SWL's asserstions it does have some limited success. The biggest drag factor on sucessis that you take a kid or gang off a rough estate and then at the end of the day or weekend they go back to the same place that taught them the negative lessons you've been trying to overwrite. Teachers cant do it they have kids for 6 hours a day roughly 30 weeks of the year a fraction of the time they may spend in a dysfunctional home or running the streets.

Getting to teenagers is too late. Getting to kids younger means ripping them away from what may be a loving family there'sno way you can justify taking chldren enmass away from their families for a year or two at a time. The logical thing to do is have patience and work on late teens and early twenties and do this for as long as it takes for the lessons you have taught those people filter into the lives of the children they will raise. Then keep doing it.

Im all for people having choice in their lives but I think there are somethings that even if you choose not to follow them then you ought to be exposed to them so that you have the choice to follow the rules or not. The rules many people are learning now is that crime and violence are the way things just are.

one love

Kids these days, eh?

They are both way more sophisticated than we ever were at age 14, but also not especially prepared to deal with all the knowledge at their fingers ends, via the internet, television, etc.

Where can rebellious teenagers turn for guidance, because they *do* need guidance. Which in an ideal world would come from their parents or school teachers.

Why did someone like me, who left a violent family home situation at age 15 end up finishing highschool on my own, working part-time jobs to support myself as my family refused to support me anymore ... meanwhile my youngest brother ended up in and out of various juvenile detention centres? Especially as out of six siblings he is the one I relate to the best, the one I feel is more like me than the rest of them?

It's impossible to generalize about people.

My littlest brother is just as smart as me, just as creative, equally feisty ... yet he fell by the wayside. And I try my damndest to talk to him and make him feel worthwhile. But until he believes that for himself ... you know? It's hard.

<> (blicky)

Maybe sometimes, but surely not always.

As far as generalisations go I should have got pregnant at age 15 and married someone working at the mine and spent the rest of my life living in a horribly uncultured and 'live for the weekend get drunk' environment. But everything inside me said NO to that and so I ran away from it.

So I guess in some ways I feel closer to those who didn't run away than maybe some of you can. It's called empathy.

Because doing that wasn't exactly easy.

And yeah okay, some end up being total dipshits, but others just look lost to me. There but for *whatever* I might have ended up just like them. I don't know why I fought against it. I don't know why they didn't. But I don't feel in a position to judge them, especially if they are mostly hurting themselves. But yes, when they break the law, well, they have to deal with the consequences.

Peer pressure is quite a terrible pressure if you feel you have no mind of your own, if you've never been taught that you were in any way worthwhile as a human being. Because it feels like you suddenly 'belong' somewhere and are accepted.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying the kids who beat this poor man to death shouldn't be held responsible. They should be punished to the full extent of the law. But neither should Mr Newlove be chastised for reacting in the way he did.

Unless some people without any empathy find it somehow necessary to chastise the dead.

az

This gets bak to the original "What was going through their minds?" question, doesn't it?

To understand is not to excuse. But surely it doesn't take too much imagination to work out how the killers ended up as they did. Does it? They are not an alien species. Painful though it may be to admit, they are you or I had we been born in a different place, to different parents. There but for grace of etc. etc.

When I was 17 years of age a friend of mine stabbed another teenager in the throat. I was about 3 yards away when he did it.

Yes - they started it - yes we were out-numbered, but if he had died who would I be today ?

My personal belief is that parenting is to blame for much of the problems with today's youth. If values are learnt from comics, videos and games, then youth is going to be out of step with adulthood.

We live in an age where single parents are deemed to be acceptable - then we make that single parent put their child into an institution from the age of 2 and go out to work. Illogical.

Or we accept that both parents should go to work to provide a better up-bringing for the child - I'd suggest that most children would rather have Mum at home than a holiday in Spain and a new car for the family every 3 years.

But thats me - totally out of step with society.

Morning McKay

<< But thats me - totally out of step with society. >>

But you're not , are you? In the general way of things you are like the majority of the population, trying to live a decent life, and trying to get your mortgage paid off etc etc. You are in step with most of the UK I would imagine.

I have been doing some thinking, and watching of the local humanity since I put up post 1., and I know I am guilty of extreme anger at what I percieve as the behaviour of SOME of our youth. I use "pishy" language ( according to Pedro ) to vent what I feel, but at least it gets debates going!

At approaching 70, it is inevitable that some younger posters see me as a reactionary form of Victor Meldrew. I accept that, just as I accept that it is inevitable that some of my views get derided.

Reading through this thread ,and talking to some teenagers last night reinforces two views.

1 All the kids are not bad, but some seem 'lost'
2 The main reason is poverty, not the real grinding poverty that their ancestors knew, but a poverty of spirit, a poverty of hope. They seem to view 'our' section of the community as excluding them, even though one or two realise that THEY excluding themselves.

Maybe it is , as has been said, a poverty of love, or emotional support from parents who don't 'care' But ayt the end of the day they will have to face the consequences of what they do, as much as what they don't do.

I do not know how to redress the balance ( more street conversations? )but I can see that there is a section of our youth marginalised for whatever reason; they do not hope for a decent job, they know they will never get on the property ladder, the lads aspire to own a car but that seems so far out of reach ( unless nicked for temporary pleasure ) that they give up , and turn to drink, drugs and disruption to fill their evenings, they indulge in casual sex out of boredom, not love.

Where to lay the blame? On all of us who don't complain at unnacceptable behaviour? On successive politicians who have made it too easy (though not pleasant ) to live on various benefits, so it isn't necessary to work for what you want? On the education system which decided that all children are equal, and competition, and study, and struggling to 'achieve' were UNFAIR !!! Don't have Sports Day or Prizes because none must lose - What a messagge for dealing with the realities of life.

And if I am only half right - we are all guilty of letting these things happen in our name. And perhaps guilty too, of recognising too late what damage has been done to th ehopes and expectations teenagers should have.

Novo

> don't really understand how we should treat them differently because they "don't understand" the consequences of their actions: assuming we can take such a statement at face value - do you really think 14 year olds don't understand that stabbing someone doesn't have consequences

There's a discussion going on in Denmark at the moment about punishment in relation to crime among 1st/2nd generation immigrants (which we, sadly, isn't good at handling well but that's another discussion), specifically whether or not one of the harshest conesquences in the Danish law complex - being expelled if found guilty of serious crimes - works or not.

The politicians seem to think that it does work preventively - but the social workers in three of the biggest Danish cities say no: these young people do not think before they act. "They do not have in the back of their minds that people may be expelled from the country because of comitting criminal acts. Between those I deal with, less than 1 percent think about the sanctions", one of them is quoted in todays online paper (berlingske.dk).

I think, unfortunately, that this comes on top of DBs point on the lack of emphasis. And it doesn't make it easier addressing these young people. General preventive (albeit handwringing left-handish ) measures probably are the only thing that will have long-lasting positive effects. (note: I'm not advocating lack of punishment either - sure that's needed)

>Certainly, modern advertising constantly promotes individuality
Going back to the 50s and 60s probably is not practical But at some point the collective we needs to think about how to (re-) instill some sense of community in all of us. Individuality is certainly not bad per se - but too much of it has drawbacks on society. It's fine that we all come together and help and feel the community in face of disasters - which, luckily is still the case - but long-term, it's not enough. Quite like a soccer team of 11 very skilled individual players might not win anything if they're not able to get over the "I'm so good so I can do this alone" kind of thinking and start performing as a team. I like the comments about life in Arran and the experiments in Scotland - to me, they point in the right direction.

>we are becoming a divided society and we need something that will bring us together a bit
Also recently discussed here The norm in Denmark has always been to send your kids to the public school. That, however, is also changing - many more kids are now sent to private schools due to increasing affluence, focus on individuality ("my kids needs the best to realise their full potential" thing) and, also, changes in religious observations (esp., I think, muslim schools).

Thus, we're losing the "combining" feature of the public schools as probably the one place where kids of all backgrounds could and would meet and at least have the possibility of getting to know and understand one another.

>They seem to view 'our' section of the community as excluding them, even though one or two realise that THEY excluding themselves.
Agreed, that is a huge problem - here seen as probably THE major problem with gangs we have of both "ethnic Danes" and "immigrants" (Bob, I hate the differentiation that's put forward in the media here!). They feel that the society will never give them a chance or accept them as they are so "who cares".

>>Or we accept that both parents should go to work to provide a better up-bringing for the child - I'd suggest that most children would rather have Mum at home than a holiday in Spain and a new car for the family every 3 years.

I wish I lived in this fantasy world of Mckay's where mothers work only for a bit of pin money to afford luxuries. In my family - as in most others I'm aware of - myself and my wife both need to work to pay for the mortgage, food, clothes...

On:
>>My personal belief is that parenting is to blame for much of the problems with today's youth

I want to poke at this a little more.

Firstly, does it mean that parents have taken their eye off the ball in recent years? Have people decided to stop parenting? I doubt it. It could be that poor parenting arises when families live in difficult social and economic conditions.

Secondly...that statement doesn't give any kind of lead on how to fix the problem. Is it simply a mater of telling parents to pull their socks up? Well - certainly many families seem to benefit hugely from parenting classes, etc. etc. and I'd suggest that we really want to be pumping resources into this area. Some, of course, will still be hard to reach. What does one do about a parent whose main life priority is the next drink? Or even with a parent who is simply just so ground down by poverty and poor living conditions that they find life hard to handle?

Dare I mention it again...social work?

If we were at all serious about solving some of our social problems, we'd be investing in social work. And yet I get the distinct impression (eg from the media) that it's unpopular. Why is that?

novo
>>I use "pishy" language

Can I just point out that maybe your're assuming that pedro was being gratuitously offensive. I think it's a confusion with his guid Scots tongue, The word 'Pish' doesn't have quite the force that perhaps you imagine.

(OK, yes, it *can* also refer to urine - but really it's very moderate. "Och, pish reverend McTaggart!" would not sound out of place)

Actually, I said the viewpoint was pishy, not necessarily the words. Novo's language is usually very proper.

It's just what he *says*...

One course that is becoming popular in schools at the moment is the ASDAN. Its a complimentary or sometimes ulternative to traditional, learn - revise - sit exam, format education.

It works really well with kids on the periphary of normal society, there risk of offending is above normal, income levels for the family way below normal, reading age way below normal etc...

Its amazing how just a couple of key factors can easily and so often end up with other elements that heavily influence your life being highly detremental to you and seen as anti social or plain criminal.

Im not asking for sympathy you either have that or you dont. What people ought have is understanding. One of Novo's opening questions was what goes through people's minds when they commit crimes or set upon people like a pack of animals. I like that he asks but what doesnt often folow from this addmission that people dont understand the motives is a balancing attitude of if idont understand, if Im not a peer then I dont really have the requirements to judge.

The divide in society is a two way thing.

I *now* dont commit the same crimes I used to because I have way too much to lose if I got caught. I now dont commit the same crimes I used to ecause Im a bit older and can easily find other ways of proviing my staus to myself and others. I have become old, respectable and middle class. This is just a trick of perspective but there has been a real movement from where I was to where I am. There is no denying that we in the UK are enjoying a better standard of living and improving our education and manners because we are more wealthy but some people arent enjoying the same increase in wealth and expecting them to be like us without those same key life improvements is just silly.

Redistribution of wealth is one way of narrowing the gap but I still think we need less in terms of choice over where we go for our health care our schooling and such like. We are less and less one nation yet it seems we still expect people to act the sameway when people have markedly different lives.

Im not saying no punishments, Im not saying lets hug a hoody, what I an saying is that simply pointing the finger and saying people are bad or evil is not going to solve anyones problems. Well unless your problem is finding a new scapegoat and you edit the Daily Mail

one love

Mind you...to quote Billy Connolly:
"When someone in Glasgow says 'Hello' to you, it sounds like you're being savaged by an alsatian."

It's just a different register of discourse. Nothing to be alarmed about.

Actually...I have little time for the devious, lying, unprincipled, careerest Boy Dave, who's not fooling me for one minute...but "Hug a hoody" was one of his better moments.

In this country, there is a prevalent dislike of young people - correct? Strange. A lot of the ones I meet are brilliant!

Ed & Pedro

Thank you both. My edification continues.......

Novo

Lost my thread a ittle in the last post.

The idea of courses like ASDAN is that you cant fail them there are different levels but everyone gets an award that reflects their work. I have never worked in a school, and Ive worked in over fifty, where competitive sports are not part of the curriculum and the sports days. Wha I see from this is kids who dont get involved becuase their efforts are never celebrated. In a class of thirty there can be more important outcomes than 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Most kids do the things everyone else do because they just like to run around, whack balls about or just jump up and down a bit. Some get really put off by the fact that compared to others they arent very good and try to disengage.

The ASDAN gives rewards for what you can do as opposed to saying you must be this good to get anything.

What I found surprising more surprising than the way some hrad core school refusers and long term excluded kids got a lot out of it is the sourse content. Well not so much content, as us and the kids decide that. We dont worry about 1066 but we do get them up to spedd on filling out p60s and apllications for provisional driving licences. Kids who wont pick up a reading book for fear of failure with no reward see the point in applying hemselves to do soemthing that has a relevance to their everyday life.

Anyway what shocked me is that roughly half of all the lower levels of award schemes (they go from lower level GCSE to university entrance level) concentrate on inter personal and personal skills like working in groups or identifying your own shortcomings and addressing them. For a range of reasons the kids who are falling into lawlessness lakc the ability to operae in the same way as many people might expect they have little hope of succeeding without people who themselves have these skills taking the me to teach them such things in a focused way that reading Shakespeare aloud or learn algebra is clearly failing to.

one love