h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

So does Tate Britain have to be careful what's displayed within that boundary? What are we coming to.

In October 2005, an American doctor, was given 22 years in prison for founding a charity, Help the Needy, which helped children in Iraq stricken by an economic and humanitarian blockade imposed by America and Britain.

Slight aside, but the above isn't an entirely accurate representation of what happened. Whilst one of the charges upon which he was convicted was breaking sanctions on Iraq, he was also charged with Tax evasion and fraud. The 'charity' he setup was unregistered and unaudited, and he conned others (notably his health insurer) and took money from the charity for his own personal use.

M

The reason there's a line in Tate Britain is that straddling the boundary they've got a Turner-Prize nominated art work that is a painstaking duplication of Brian Haw's original protest. Worth a look. They've not been prosecuted for it, funnily enough, although technically they could be.

SoRB

whilst requireing a permit to protest is no joke, that Mark Thomas programme was very good.funny, interesting and inspiring in many ways. Particularly good was the common sense and good judgement shown on many occassions by the police. Although one gets the impression Mark Thomas isn't their favourite person!
Well worth a listen though.

There was also the woman moved on for reading The Independant - with its headline showing "YOU COULD BE ARRESTED FOR READING THIS NEWSPAPER"

Looks like even Hain and Goldsmith are against this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2096509,00.html

"The letter from Mr Hain warns: "There is a grave risk that the new power will act as a recruiting sergeant for extremism." "
"Lord Goldsmith states: "I agree there are significant risks associated with the introduction of such powers ... I would also welcome details of the safeguards ...to ensure this power could not be portrayed as an assault on civil liberties."

Much as I embrace topic drift, the original question is still up there: if you're *completely* uncommunicative to a policeman who stops you and questions you - what happens?

And assuming arrest follows (for what?), but they have no way of confirming your identity (no wallet, no other ID, and you're not on the DNA database already) - what happens?

SoRB

Accidentally shut your hand in the door to see if you're mute?

Send you for pyschiatric review (that's what happened to Piano man - remember him?)

Nothing good, anyrate. I personally think this comes under being a reasonable member of society - if you look identical to an e-fit of a suspect in a murder case but have a cast iron alibi, you may be entitled to say nothing, but I think couldn't complain if something bad happens to you.

sprout

I would say depends on the situation. In the US, it could range from getting roughed up to the police trying to find out if you're hurt/injured/stunned/lost.

Re: the situation, I'd be keen to make it as innocuous as possible. I'm not talking about being found standing outside a burning house with a can of petrol and some matches.

An example: I was once stopped by two plainclothes CID officers. My bestest friend and I were walking back to the halls of residence from the campus of Salford uni. Two guys pulled up in a car and got out, and one said "Alright, lads. CID." I didn't hear him quite right, and thought "I wonder what he wants to see our ID for?"

They asked us where we'd been and where we were going. Having nothing in particular to hide, we told him, all very genial. They seemed to relax a bit and asked if we were carrying anything, or something (memory's a bit hazy, it was 20 years ago...). We weren't. We didn't and don't use drugs, or carry weapons, or whatever. Oh... but hang on. We've just bought these... We showed them the Lazer Tag sets we'd just picked up from a local toy shop. We'd been playing with the guns on the walk home. Apparently someone had spotted us from a passing car... and called the police!

In retrospect, I'm amazed at the balls those two guys had - if the report had been accurate, both I and my bestest friend might have been carrying loaded handguns and been prepared to use them. As it was, we all had a good chuckle about so-called adults having plastic toy guns that went "pow" and lit up when you pulled the trigger.

What I'm getting at is a similar situation: you're walking along in the afternoon, broad daylight, minding your own business, and police car pulls up and the copper gets out and asks who you are, where you've been, where you're going etc. If you simply clam up completely and don't speak at all - what is he supposed to do? What is he *likely* to do?

SoRB

"Much as I embrace topic drift, the original question is still up there: if you're *completely* uncommunicative to a policeman who stops you and questions you - what happens?"

Well, as far as I understand PACE, apart from certain charges/situations where it's actually illegal for you to withhold your identity, they'd just carry on regardless of whether they had your real name or not. They don't need your name to fingerprint you, lock you up, charge you, etc. But obviously they wouldn't bail you without any ID - so if you were charged you'd be shooting yourself in the foot by withholding your name.

Whilst they can't theoretically take you in for refusing to give your name during a stop & search, the whole idea of a stop and search is as an alternative to arresting people - so if they had reasonable grounds to stop and search you they'd not have too much difficulty in finding reasonable grounds to arrest you... And again, if you just stay quiet you're going to end up in a cell (obviously without contacting anyone outside - because that would give your Identity away) until they had either cleared you or they ran out of time and charged/released you.

Just because you didn't want to cooperate doesn't mean the police can't do anything about it. (Your just going to p*** off a lot of coppers who have to waste their time trying to run around the city finding out who you are.)

SoRB - in that particular case, they'd had a report that you were armed, you were indeed lucky it was just two CID men (unless there was an armed response team hiding round the corner you never saw)...

The obvious answer to that one would have been that the moment you showed any signs of a lack of cooperation you'd have been arrested and carted back to the station - and lets face it - young lads, near a university, it wouldn't have taken them long to find out who you were.

Oh yes, and we were carrying our Uni IDs, and were quite ready and willing to show them.

I'm just intrigued to know what they could do to someone not carrying ID who simply didn't cooperate in any way. I mean sure, they could fingerprint you, DNA swab you, photograph you to their heart's content - but what do they file those records under? "John Smith"? Sure, if your prints or DNA match an on-file record, you're in trouble. But if you're not a crim, and they don't... what then?

As for peeing off coppers who'd have to run around to confirm your identity - where would you start? You've got a warm body picked up off the high street of a town with 100,000 inhabitants. No name, no phone, no wallet, no keys. No indication whatever of origins, no evidence of criminal activity. Just doesn't speak. Where do even *start* trying to find out who that person is? The Piano Man case shows it's very difficult - and that guy got on the news, and even then they had trouble confirming who he really was for *days*, and he wasn't under arrest.

If you *were* arrested - how long could they hold you, without charge?

Oh, and I'm more than aware how lucky we were - especially after the cops in London shot that guy in the back for carrying a table leg in a carrier bag.

SoRB

I'm trying if possible to drive this to a logical conclusion.

Let's say I'm picked up. I live alone, but I don't carry my key with me. I haven't carried my wallet, either, and I'm independently wealthy so no employer will miss me.

Police stop me, I don't speak. They get shirty. I don't speak. They arrest me. I don't speak. They cart me off, fingerprint me, DNA swab etc. They charge me with something. Anything, doesn't matter. Remand me in custody. I don't speak. Do I get a defence lawyer? Probably. But I won't speak to him, even to say who I am.

Logically I suspect the end result would be going down for contempt of court. And *logically*, I'd never be released for that offence, because every time I was up for parole my silence would be taken as contempt again.

Just curious what society would do to someone who didn't play its game.

SoRB

Another quick look at PACE (you really aught to read it yourself SoRB

Unless Im misreading something (we really need Blues Shark in this conversations):

They can hold you for 36 hours without charge (which can be extended another 12 hours by a Superintendant or higher)...

Regardless of what you do (or don't do), they've got that time to investigate and charge you - if they charge you then you'd be held in custody until you went to caught, the trial would carry on regardless and you'd be found guilty or innocent - what they do with the paperwork is just that - a paperwork problem - it wouldn't change the process.

If they did run out of time before releasing you they'd have to let you go, but you can guarantee that if they still had suspicions they'd stick to you like glue until you did something that gave your identity away. (The first time someone in the street said hello to you - you're stuffed, the first time you use a bank, you're stuffed, the first time you walk into a house or get into a car, you're stuffed, etc...).

Just about the only thing you could do to avoid them identifying you would be to cut off all links from your past life and start living on the streets.

"until you went to caught" - fingers working faster than brain there!

What about dental records? Can the police ask for an impression of your teeth? Or is this just for corpses?

Yes, they could ask you to impersonate your teeth but as you would not be talking it would have to be a mime.

Also, I believe the permanently armed police cruising Salford did not start until about 15years ago. It really was a different time back then.

2 slight variations. 1) What happens if they do identify you anyway, despite not being a criminal previously and never having spoken. Then what do they do?

2) What happens if you *do* talk to your defense attorney, and tell just him/her who you are? Is your defense attorney required to share that with the police? Can you instruct your attorney not to share it?

I put the original post to a legal guy, just got his response:

"If they have reasonable grounds that you may be carrying numerous items under various acts, ie stolen property, articles for going equipped, drugs, ciggies (if under 16), drugs, firearms etc etc etc, you can be detained for a search. Similar to an arrest but slightly different.

At this stage, if you do not give any details there will be no offence. If you are then arrested for something found on your person and still stay shtum, that is your right. The first thing said to you will be "You do not have to say anything".

If you are suspected to be wanted for another offence (ie a copper ecognises you, or you fit the description of a felon), then may be a chance your dna or fingerprints will be on file. These can now be tested using force even before any charge.

If ID is still so sought and you are still legally detained for a suspected offence then you have the right to stay silent throughout and there will be no additional offence. It may harm your defence, as said in the caution, but no an offence in its own right.

However, if silent at court this will be deemed contempt. If evidence is there for a conviction you will be convicted regardless and a contempt conviction thrown in.

You will serve your time as per usual.

Although PACE came in in 1984/5 many IRA terrorists used to do this and still got banged up.

Finally, I know you said in the scenario you are walking, but if you were driving or believed to have been, it is an offence in its own right not to give your details. And also uder The Prevention of Terrorism Act if that is why yoiu have stopped and some section of The Criminal Justice Act.

Hope this helps."