h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Novo:

I agree. Fanny, you need to research the general viwe of women in Islam and also the 'cultural' customs that any of us non-believers have to cow-tow to when having to visit one of those countries.

On the note I think the Iranians have scored several points.



I would argue that diplomacy had nothing to do with this. I'madinnerjacket specifically said the release was 'a gift to the British people'(I want the receipt for the gift so I can take them back and swap it for a PS3). He said it was not for the British government.

i.e. the diplomatic talks did not work which goes with the reported shock from the FO who knew nothing about it.



Well, apart from parading them on TV and using them as political pawns against the Geneva Convention.

3 The bellicose view from the other 'president' and the hawks in the US Administration who were all gung ho about how we should deal with it have been proved wrong , again.





I would like to know where the helicopter was. However, we do not know what orders the armed forces have re: Iranian forces. It is quite possible they have bene told to threaten them away as much as possible but not open fire. That would give Iran every reason and an excuse to use military force somewhere in the world.

<...at this stage it looks like a win-win for Iran.?>

Hmmm, not so sure. Britian, the EU and the UN can simply get their own back by subtly coming down hard on them re: the nuclear weapons issue. Iran uses the releasing of the personnel to show they have been reasonable and therefore the world community should. The world community replies: they were not in Iranian waters you know that we know that, it is an episode irrelevant to the nuclear situation.

Hello 179541

Your analysis may be better than mine , but I don't agree that diplomacy did not win the day. Neither you nor I know what talks have been going on in the past 2 weeks. we cannot assume that only what we see on TV or read in a biased press represents the truth.

I think Arminadinnerjacket has scored a significant point or two, as I outlined in my post to Fanny.

Wheter or nor the capture was legal or not is irrelevant. The way the captives were treated was nothing like the way the coalition treats those it takes captive.

I agree that the Geneva Convention forbids the parading of captives, but at least their families could seee they were well, and fed. They were not on their knees and blindfolded.

The episode may have ben orchestrated to demonstrate the difference between the way the U.S. goes about things, and if so, it succeeded.
The comparisons between the examples I gave Fanny could not be more obvious.

What we now await is the captives own story, and the explanation (if one ever comes) about the role of the Lynx, HMS Cornwall, and the 'real' contact with thegroup whislt they boarded the Indian registered vessel.

If a proper watch had been kept the boarding party could have been ordered off at sped much earlier, or maybe they could have stayed on the merchant vessel - which would have been more difficult for the Iranians to 'arrest' and take back into definitive Iranian waters.

Novo

'Fifteen British sailors and marines held captive for nearly two weeks in Iran arrived home Thursday, a day after the announcement of their release defused a growing confrontation between the two countries.'

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/05/british-sailors-070405.html

Novo

Ah yes, I see where you are coming from.

What I am saying is that PUBLICALLY diplomacy has not won the day as we have not seen or heard of any 'diplomacy' happening.

It is well-known that in hostage situations the FO does carry out 'diplomatic discussions' with the hostage takers but they do not advertise it for various reasons. i.e. the mantra: we do not negotiate with terrorists etc.

What is in the media, as far as we and the world are concerned, is the truth therefore Irmadinerjerk did not release the crew due to diplomacy but due to the 'New Year'.

Itchydermatitisgingervitis may have scored some public points but it's not the public that make decisions that can affect the future of Iran; it's Europe, the US and the UN and NATO...all of whom, I bet, will not be very happy at all in private and will be formulating some revenge which will no doubt be done diplomatically through legal and justifiable means.

Arniedinkyjalopy has not scored any points with this public person...I can see exactly what he has done and therefore has not succeeded. THe only people it will have succeeded with are the ones who have not got the gumption to realise what has 'actually' happened here.

1st, yay! They're on British soil! That's fantastic.


2nd, this is hilarious. Fanny goes ballistic b/c anhaga "ignored" her post - and them immediately turns around and ignores my post. About the topic that directly interests her. AWESOME!!!

Quick post, 'cos I'm not here.

1) We are not at war with Iran. The Geneva Convention does not apply.
2) This is a victory for Iran. The second most powerful navy in the world has been humbled by a few guys in speedboats.
3) Iran has publicly shown Britain to be a paper tiger. For all the bluster: this crisis was started, maintained and ended at the whim of Iran - *not* Britain.
4) The UN has *again* shown itself to be an empty talking shop, doing nothing outwardly to support personnel working under UN auspices. Never mind Tony Blair shouting, the UN Secretary-General should have been sitting on Ahmidinejad's chest, bitch-slapping him.
5) The boundary line in the Gulf between Iraq & Iran is disputed. The RN did not patrol up to the limit of the line in view of this sensitivity. The patrol boundaries had been established for 4 years without incident. The RN tended to patrol up to about 1 Nm of the boundary until now. The effect of this entire episode is likely to be that the RN will be even more circumspect about the boundary line in future, perhaps only patrolling up to 2 Nm of the line. So basically, the Iranians have bullied the RN out of the way and extended the area they de facto control.

"2) This is a victory for Iran. The second most powerful navy in the world has been humbled by a few guys in speedboats."

Just like Jutland was for the Germans?

World of difference methinks.

How good it was to see them back in bilighty, and *all*, whatever their sex, wearing their proper military uniforms, and not a silly headscarf in sight.

I heard on the radio earlier that the whole Arab world considers this incident a big sucess for them as it has demonstrated the absolute impotence of the west against Iran. They may have a point.

Fanny, why do you keep ignoring my posts about women's rights? Do you not care about women's rights?

Well, according to my calculations it is now about 4:15 am in Tehran. This is 15 minutes past the designated time the attack was reportedly scheduled to begin. I haven't seen any 'Breaking News!' headlines on my usual news sites so:

regardless....

Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if all the 'leaders' focussed their energies on real global problems such as hunger, disease, or climate change, etc.

Why are our 'leaders' so vain, narrow-minded, and arrogant?

because they're human?h

'Because they're human' may be a reason, but it's no excuse.

Why do we not choose to have leaders who exemplify the best, instead of the worst, that defines our species?

It's just weird

'Why do we not choose to have leaders who exemplify the best, instead of the worst, that defines our species?'

Tell me: do you have any desire to enter politics?






I thought not.
Neither do I.

Sometimes we go to govern with with politicians we have, not with the ones we want.

I'd vote fer ya!



I think the entire system is so flawed, that even the, (rare), well-intentioned leader is simply overcome by socio-historio-cultural intertia

I think it's time we dispensed with leaders, and invented a better method of getting things done

Just don't ask me what that method would be.

At least, not right now. My typing is rapidly deterioriating....

Now that we've been shown up by another Middle Eastern country perhaps we can get down to disciplining the navy personell concerned - where was the helicopter ? Where was the support vessel ? How were the ships allowed to leave ?

Incidently on the pictures do you notice the 5 guys skulking about in the background looking very peed off ? Spot the ones who didn't co-operate.

Sorry Arnie, you're right, I just keep sounding off rather than conversing with others. Apologies!

With regards to your post 32 >>Fanny, I don't see the connection. B/c Iran treats a captured female soldier in a sexist manner, therefore the British services are going to say "HEY! Great idea! We'll do that too!<<

I just think that Islamic countries may well taget females in future because they feel at liberty to particularly humiliate them because as Researcher 179541 has pointed out they are viewed as second class citizens fit only for housework. So forcing the captured women to wear headscarfs looks so dramatic on TV and in photomedia. Well it does to me. It so completely divests them of their equal military identity with the men. I can imagine it plays really well in the Islamic world.

Maybe I'm being oversensitive about it though?

Sorry to make clear, I'm saying that the our miltary may wish to keep women away from any situation where capture may occur to prevent the 'enemy' making such political capital out of it.

I think those are both valid points you make. I hope neither of them happen, but I agree they are certainly possible, if not probable.