h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello WA

I have just watched the video of the Deputy Chief Defence Staff regarding the GPS positioning of the RN boats and of HMS Cornwall.

A clear and precise description , with much back-up detail which shows that the RN semi rigids and the commercial vessel which they boarded were 1.7 miles Inside Iraqi waters. It is therefore the Iranians who were in someone elses territory.

Interestingly the Iranians provided two sets of information on the co-ordinates, the first of which places the RN boats in Iraqi waters, and when this was pointed out by diplomats, was changed to put a new 'plot' inside their own waters. No on;y therefore a criminal act, but obviously one carried out for political reasons.

We can only hope that making this information so public might force the more moderate hands in Tehran.

Novo

Well, I think my earlier post, which got modded, describes the Iranian position to a T. Seriously, they did to get their "stuff" together. I mean who the heck are they fooling? They can't even provide a set of coordinates in their own water?

I don't think Tony Blairs reputation matters after that kind of massive screw up.

The other classic contradiction is that the Iranians won't let British diplomatic personel visit the abducted sailors/marines. There's no reason not to, if they were truly above board on any of this.

but apparently they will let the Turkish embassy in. Which is a bit odd since there were accusations of Iranian officials defecting whilst in Turkey.

Now they're saying they'll release the female sailor.

This isn't about where they were and weren't. This was a hostage grab.

Consequences were mentioned earlier, specifically the consequences of the RN applying force. Excuse me, the Iranians committed an illegal act. Any consequences arise from that starting point.

Fine. But the 1st step before anything else is getting those people back safely. Then, and only then, should you start talking about consequences.

The media mainly cared about the woman. And the fact that she has a child back home. I wouldn't be sirprised to see less intrest in it now that she is being released. Very bad PR for Iran to take a woman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6501459.stm

A wee link about Iran. Quite interesting as a kind of background to the current convo.

The most worrying thing about the hosatge taking is that they could be used as a human shield against any strike on Iran's nuclear facilities. Worryingly familiar.

As I was thinking previously this whole affair was either a mistake by the Iranians, leapt upon as a chance to play oneupmanship, or it was a deliberate act.The culminating TV coverage by them was a clearly put up job , and disgraceful in that it chose to show Faye Terney

It will end, and the personnel will be returned by diplomatic means, even if it means that the whole world apart from Iran and any friends it has will know they are lying about the position. In fact it is clear that they didn't know where they were.

Personally, though I cant see it happening I would prefer the Wren to decline freedom without her shipmates, though that might be counter productive, I really see no reason to let the Iranians portray themselves as caring and respectful of a woman in this situuation.

If we are to continue naval actions in the area, a number of things need to be done,

1 We need to use larger and fully armed shallow draft boats for intercepts
2 The boarding parties need to be more suitably armed and with dedicated lookouts
3 The mother ship's helicopter must be armed and overhead during boarding operations.
4 The MoD should release more Frigates or armed naval craft ( rather than mothballing them ) so that there are greater numbers on patrol at anu time

Lastly, once all the personnel are returned the UN, and NATO should inform the Iranians that the ROE is being up-rated to say that any fast patrol boat will be treated as hostile, and may be fired upon in waters outside Iranians territory.

Novo

There are some questions to be asked of the commander of HMS Cornwall. Why weren't the Iranian boats spotted on radar and the boarding party warned to get off the cargo ship and why didn't the Lynx have enough fuel to give then cover and likewise warn them to get off?

The way Iran has conducted itself throughout this affair has been revealing.

1) It has launched an aggressive hostage grab in an identical manner to the terrorist groups Hamas and Hizbollah it sponsors.
2) It lies about the co-ordinates of their capture.
3) It then accuses Britain of being provocative by asking to see their people.
4) It promises not to use the prisoners for propaganda purposes.
5) It reneges on that promise and parades them on tv.
6) It forces the WREN to wear a highly symbolic headscarf.
7) It promises to release the WREN, (Why? If the RN personnel were breaking laws, they're all guilty)
8) It then reneges on the promise to release the WREN.

This puts the negotiations over nuclear weapons in context. They have shown themselves to be liars and criminals.

The BBC News page is saying that the Wren will not now be released because the UK is not showing "the correct attitude"

Presumably they mean, "won't tell lies on our behalf"

What standards, if any, do these people have?

Novo

As far as lying and breaking promises, I don't see how the Iranians are different from any other government...

Don't we always repeatedly hear about how much the US and UK government lies and breaks promises?

How many times has the name "Tony B. Liar" been posted on Hootoo?

Seems that Britain is taking it to the UN

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/world/middleeast/29cnd-sailor.html?hp


I'm not sure how this will play out. I'm not sure what Iran really hopes to gain from all of this? They probably don't want to start a war. So are they really just trying to impress internal hard-liners?

Hi Arnie,

I would have thought it obvious that I was referring to the Iranian version of 'position' in Lat and Long, as opposed to the publicised position. That is to say ,information in the public domain,

I am not discussing the lies that are told to us when we don't have the facts. Something you are as familiar with as we are?

Novo

Sorry Arnie, missed out the reply to this,

<< I'm not sure how this will play out. I'm not sure what Iran really hopes to gain from all of this? They probably don't want to start a war. So are they really just trying to impress internal hard-liners?>>

I reckon that at bottom it was over reaction by The Republican Guard element, which the Iranians are finding it difficult to row back on.

Given the tensions in the area, and the presence of coalition warships
just outside their waters, it's no surprise that they cannot hold their hands up and admit to being wrong.

Novo

>>It forces the WREN to wear a highly symbolic headscarf.<< SWL post 51

Crikey I'm finding myself agreeing with SWL. Just saw a news trailer showing the female sailor dressed up in some kind of Islamic garb. This woman is a serving sailor in the RN. She should be shown in her uniform. This is disgusting. And I notice how they are using her particularly as a pawn.

She is a woman in a rabid Islamic country...the Muslims in that country will probably find a woman actually being in the armed forces disgusting.

They have simply put her in her place where she is supposed to be: supplicant to us men...and quite right too(from the rabid Islamic zealots point of view anyway).



Well, that's all women are useful for isn't...that and making babies...(from the rabid Islamic zealots point of view).

Say it aint so, SWL!

A government being deceitful and crooked luckily this isnt happening anywhere else with other governments and certainly not ours.

Catch-up sunshine we knew all this a loooooooong itme ago.

What is astounding in all this is that the UK government still doent look after the people its sends to do its dirty work. Flame retardent foam in planes (or not as it turns out) proper bots for the love of Bod) then in a patrol on a border with a country WEL KNOWn for this it lets the same thing happen again.

Still never mind more money and creative licence for the ad-execs who will be asked to make sure we get more or even any people to sign up for the forces in the future.

Yes you're right blicky. The common soldier has and always been viewed by the establishment as cannon fodder. In the middle of Whitehall stands the great stone cenotaph, where every year the top brass and military knobs, the primeminister, assorted politicians, the Queen, her family, numerous ambassadors and assorted clerics, come to lay their poppy wreathes on Remembrance sunday. What is etched in huge letters on the cenotaph? 'TO THE GLORIOUS DEAD' It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. A superstitious death cult, not a million miles away from that of Islamic suicide bombers really. The young men and women giving their lives for what exactly? For whom? It's bloody crazy!