h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6384029.stm

I saw this on the news last night and got to thinking. Are not some of our present societal woes her direct responsibility?

She ripped traditional communities apart. Forced people to accept the logic of monetrism for greater economic success. Everyone should aspire to own their own home, work harder, much harder. The sloppy traditional British attitudes of numerous tea breaks was over for ever. Family life was forfeited. Suddenly huge numbers of people had to work all the hours god sends or go under. What happens to traditonal family structures? Is it any surprise kids go off the rails?

So what values do our young people now hold? What gives their life any meaning? In a single generation can you transform a society's values so quickly? Human beings need their lives to have a sense of meaning apart from MONEY, I suggest.

And yet who whines most about the present apparent lawlessness of youngsters?

There's a saying. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

She was quite some ***t

Well - "She ripped traditional communities apart." I don't really see how you can blame Thatcher for this - are you saying that the excesses of Arthur Scargill and the NUM are her fault ?
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-"Forced people to accept the logic of monetrism for greater economic success." I think most people would argue that Thatcherism was an exclusive extension of menterism - however she didn't force anybody to do anything - people leapt to take up monetrism of their own free will.

-"Everyone should aspire to own their own home, work harder, much harder. The sloppy traditional British attitudes of numerous tea breaks was over for ever." I'm sorry but I totally fail to see how this is a bad thing.

-"Family life was forfeited. Suddenly huge numbers of people had to work all the hours god sends or go under." No people chose to work harder to earn more money to acquire more possesions, the fact that they borrowed money to achieve this was not the fault of the government which provided a stable economy.

-"What happens to traditonal family structures? Is it any surprise kids go off the rails?" Margaret Thatcher actually was in favour of traditional families and I don't truely understand how you attribute the breakdown of family life to her.

I would suggest you have a personal antipathy to Margret Thatcher, and fail to see all that she achieved as British PrimeMinister - the first woman to hold this post.

>are you saying that the excesses of Arthur Scargill and the NUM are her fault ?<

No, but her reaction to them and her well documented antagonism towards unions - and her pursuit in the NUM in particular because to her mind they were the last great union to be 'tamed' and she still heldf a grudge against them for perceived wrongs done to her father - didn't help the situation. It also doesn't help her credibility that most of the predictions Scargill made about the Coal Industry in the event of the miners losing the dispute have come true.

>this was not the fault of the government which provided a stable economy<

Do the phrases '1 in 10' and 'Black Wednesday' mean anything to you?

>I don't truely understand how you attribute the breakdown of family life to her<

'There is no such thing as society'. Added to which her scapegoating of single mothers had a disasterous affect on communities throughout the country, creating a virtual underclass. Creating an enormous gap between the owners and the occupiers of councuil housing hardly helped either, especially as their was no provision to provide alternate social housing models.

And that doesn't begin to address her woeful foreign policy record 'The Mother of a Thousand Dead', and the shameful 'I wasn't there when it didn't happen' attitude over the invasion of Grenada. Or her personal friendships with some of the more questionable figures of 20th century history - Pinochet, simply because he backed us over the Falklands, and her supine attitude towards America which has arguably landed yus in the 'special relationship' we are in now.

The complete headlong rush to de-regulate without considering the long term effects, such as most of Britains water supplies being in the hands of foreign countries and the public transport system in complete dissaray.

I mean, really, where do you want me to stop?

"Despite protests that previous prime ministers had to be dead to rate a statue in Britain's Houses of Parliament, Margaret Thatcher unveiled her silicon bronze likeness at a ceremony Wednesday.

The statue, standing 7 feet 4 inches, faces another of former Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the member's lobby of the Palace of Westminster, the ornate parliamentary building on the bank of the River Thames."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6431502,00.html

Somebody likes her. Only the second commoner to rate a statue in Parliament I believe.

"It also doesn't help her credibility that most of the predictions Scargill made about the Coal Industry in the event of the miners losing the dispute have come true"

I often wonder what would have happened to the coal industry if she hadn't won... Big pay rises for the workers? Unprofitable pits staying open? Cheaper coal available from abroad? Would they really have survived anyway or would it have just dug an even bigger economic pit for the country in general?

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"Or her personal friendships with some of the more questionable figures of 20th century history"

Come on Bues - name a politician in power who hasn't at one moment or another got into bed (figuratively speaking) with someone they didn't like because it was in their own or their own countries best interest at the time?

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"her supine attitude towards America which has arguably landed yus in the 'special relationship' we are in now."

The 'special relationship' dates back _far_ further than Thatcher, in fact it could actually be said to date back to WWII and one specific area - SIGINT (Enigma). (Which continues to this day with levels of cooperation between GCHQ and the NSA which are unparalleled by any other international agreements).

And frankly, given her personal character - I have trouble associating the words 'Thatcher' and 'Supine' in any circumstances.

You really think Thatcher *didn't* like Pinochet? I suggest you go back and look at the footage again. Only slighty less mutual fawning than was involved with Ronnie Raygun.

Regardless of how far back the 'special relationship goes', Thatcher took it to a new level of intimacy. Admittedly it was a two way butt-sniffing, unlike the present idiots behaviour, but the pattern was well established by Thatcher.

for me the single act that encapusulates Thatcher policies is the change to employment laws regarding the 16 to 18 year olds.

Her government was the first to allow people under to work in a regulated laboutr market after 10pm.

Aswell as having the effect of pricing many people with families to support out of the labour market it gave comapanies more acess to young naive workers who they could get similar work out of for less pay.

" families, society we must make sure companies can get richer". Im not an expert on latin but I think that's what the motto on her coat of arms says.

one love

"Regardless of how far back the 'special relationship goes', Thatcher took it to a new level of intimacy. Admittedly it was a two way butt-sniffing, unlike the present idiots behaviour, but the pattern was well established by Thatcher."

I'm not getting involved in this debate, but I'd like to point out my dissertation was on (amongst other things) the origins of the 'Special Relationship' and to claim that it's current form is due to Thatcher is pretty ludicrous...

And I'd suggest that such a bald assertion with the caveat 'i'm not getting involved' is about as unhelpful as it gets.

I wonder how Labour would have evolved if John Smith hadn't died - but in the wake of the Militant tendency, the failures of Foot and Kinnock, the notorious Sheffield Rally - some active distancing from the left was inevitable. Perhaps it might not have stuck in people's throats so much coming from someone less unctuous and designed as Blair - but Labour had to be reinvented to some extent, if it was going to survive.

My first vote was in '97 and in favour of Blair. I still regret it, but I'm asking if things like the winter of discontent, the mentalities on both sides of the Atlantic that led to Gordon Gecko and yuppiedom, would not have necessitated someone like Thatcher to be invented in any event.

I love Thatcher for getting rid of school milk - but only because ours wasn't refrigerated and (as a consequence) often lumpy

The singl worst thing she did (and I refer you to BS first post, I totally agree) was to get rid of so much social housing, making sure that we now have the have-not ghettos and everyone else is busy building their own Castle-Nimby

I can't possiby describe the contempt I feel for women in power who get there by being more of man than men are - and then doing nothing to further the cause of equal opportunities once in power.

yes, the mining industry needed to be overhauled. But not like that.

Thatcher.
The higher welfare in her period was artificial and her legacy is a poverty that is very complex and very difficult to "repair".

I should not do this, because many people became outcasts during her reign, but as a personality I always liked her. I mean, I totally disliked her, and for me that's a charm in itself. May be masochistic.

She was extremely selfwilled and above all impertinent.

Anecdote; At spitting image her cabinet was described as a bunch of profiteers.
Next morning, ms. Thatcher in parliament; "Last night we were described as "profiteers". Mister speaker, what is wrong with thát?!"


Wonderful ! (I apologize)
Even in my darkest hours I still see that ugly woman with her handbag and a forwardness that cannot easily be met and a smile on my face becomes visible.

I'll call it "my favourite sin" as a way out.


Greetings from Amsterdam

I was talking to a guy a few weeks ago who was utterly convinced that the British decision to close the pits was a strategic decision with a view to conserving resources for the day when oil & gas ran out.

Nothing I could say would disabuse him of the notion

Talking of Spitting Image, one scene had Reagan seeing her off at an airport. After she went to the plane, he turned to someone and said, 'Damn fine woman, shame I only screwed her country'.

Increased social ills, and the divisions in society which are more magnified than at any time since the war, are her legacy.

My favourite Spitting Image of Thatcher was her and the Cabinet in a restaurant and the waiter asked MT what she was having. "Steak" "...and how would madam like the steak?" "Raw" "...and the vegetables...?" "They will have the same as me...!"

I am totally with Blues on Thatcher. She was probably one of the most vindictive and destructive leaders this country has had. When she was elected in 1979 she set out to systematically destroy the trade unions and hand power back to Capital. In this she succeeded whilst at the same time tearing the heart out of society as it was then without having a replacement for what was destroyed.

Lily-livered New Labour lacked the conviction to correct this and instead of stepping back from the brink they fell off the ledge into the chasm of individual rights without commensurate responsibilities.


Look at us now...


turvy

Ah, Thatcher. I grew up in and around Grantham, her home town, through my teenage years. She had a, well, force of personality.
I get very annoyed with people who find out I come from Grantham and say 'Oh, the home town of Maggie!' to which I usually reply ' Yes, and Isaac Newton who actually did something for human beings'. We also had the first female police officer.

I've heard very persuasive arguments in favour of her pension reforms.

I;ve also heard her contempories who were at school with her at the KGGS (Kesteven and Grantham Girls School - a Grammar School for girls) desribe her as very arrogant especially to those who were down on their luck such as homeless people.

I remember a competition by the local paper to come up with a town statue to her. I believe the winning entry was an indoor fountain on the grounds that it was constantly gushing everywhere but no bl**dy use to anyone.

I recall her visit on the launch of her book (1st I think) where there were about 20 people when she turned up and 150 when she left (yeah, I know, but it makes a good headline )

I also recall an april fools in the paper about the shop she grew up in was being bought out to be turned into a museum to her. The outcry in the next editions letters page was enormous!

To this day, there is no official statue or mark to what is perhaps the second most famous child of the town. Every now and then they propose one and it gets shouted down by the majority of the populace. There's a blue blue plaque thing I think but that's it.

Funny, when I was at school one of the history teachers voiced a vague suspiscion that closing down the mines was strategic - in case there was a war in which Britain didn't have good access to oil and uranium.

Me, I dunno.

As for Thatchet, certainly influential enough to have her own statue. She stuck to her guns, and was tough enough to remake the UK and much of Europe in her own image. I'm not sure I like most of that image, and I tend to think that great works tend to come from other people's sacrifices, but that's what statues are all about really isn't it?

As for economics, I think I'll leave that alone for now.

Also, Sho, I don't understand? You're saying that you have contempt for women who get involved in power politics? That they must act feminine in the sense of sit pretty and negotiate/co-operate? (manipulate?)

My initial reaction is that this is pretty viscious sexism? Even if you're against people taking what they want in general, why reserve your most vituperative criticism for women?

I agree with turvey's point about the heart being ripped out of society with nothing to put in its place. Except the 'nothing' was a massively increased valuation of money, wealth and possessions. And what's so destructive is that when that interferes with the valuation of family and friends relationships. Social life.

It's not then that suprising that she also managed to rip out the heart of the Tory party as well. (The spitting image joke about 'vegetables' says much) Tory leaders traditonally were patricians from public schools, not dissimilar to their present one. She was the lower middle class grocer's daughter, who got where she did through sheer hard work. It could be argued that Major was in her mould, but despite his circus background, he just didn't have her balls.

In many ways, despite all the new Labour froth of trillions law changes and equal ops, it's still a very Thatcherite UK. But I continually wonder where kids are supposed to get their values from, if all it is now about is being economically succesful.***And as everyone knows or should know that for capitalism to work properly there has to be losers as well as winners***. Youngsters don't take kindly to *just* feeling like impotent losers.

We need to really start valuing other things besides economic success. And I don't mean religion; but it's hgardly surpring that some *young* people are turning to evangelical religion, as an alternative to the Thatcherite 'antichrist' philosophy. The evangelical churches round here are sprouting like a rash. Well maybe some types of people. Other youngsters turn to drugs.

I'm always a bit skeptical about consumerism being depicted as an idealogy. It seems to me that most people will want nice stuff if its available, whichever values you try to instill in them.