h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>"So - you don't see lending to vulnerable people as being a cause of poverty ?"

McKay,
Try stopping ridiculous extrapolation for a minute, or shoving words into other people's mouths, and try to explain your own own claim that curbing bank profits would somehow wipe out most prostitution.
You were the one implying that profiteering banks were either the cause or at least a necessary contributing factor in almost all but the highest-class prostitution. What was your reasoning for that claim?

If you don't *have* any reasoning, why not admit that rather than just trying to change the argument?

In any case, had you bothered reading what I wrote:
"Arguably you could see some debt as being caused by banks, and debt driving people into poverty,"
you'd see I accepted that lending could indeed be seen as a factor in some poverty.

It should clearly be legalised. The "moral" arguments against legalised prostiution are nothing of the sort: the illegality and unregulation of prostitution leads to abuse by pimps, clients and drug dealers. It says a lot about an argument when the best its advocates can come up with is concern about the "message that's sent out" compared to the demonstrable ill-effects of making the business illegal.

Prostitution has not ever and will not ever go away and continuing to make it illegal simply causes misery.

McKay >Whilst there are few studies, early indications would seem to suggest that 70% of prostitutes are addicted to drugs.

I assume you have a source for this.

McKay >I meant that poverty is the other over-riding driving force in putting women into prostitution - another common factor in surveys indicates that abused women move into prostitution to support, or protect their children.

If women turn to prostitution to alleviate poverty, why punish them for it? Why not allow them to make a living, rather than forcing them to go without food or heat?

McKay >Reasons why women turn to prostitution:
>Misuse of drugs, and sometimes alcohol;>Debt and low income;>History of family breakdown, commonly associated with sexual and/or physical abuse and consequently being looked after through local authority social work services;>Continuing physical and sexual abuse into adulthood;>Poor educational achievement, poor employment history and lack of skills useful to employment;>Mental illness or learning disability;>Homelessness or lack of secure accommodation;
Once again, why punish women for trying to get out of such a situation by, when you get right down to it, honest means?

SWL >You would probably be shocked at the number of respectable housewives who earn a bit extra by working afternoons whilst the kids are at school.

I assume you have a source for this. Go on, shock me.

Potholer >Where do accurate figures come from regarding the various strands of prostitution? I imagine various people will have agendas to push, but how can/does one get reliable agenda-free figures?

Wendy McElroy, a feminist writer, wrote an interesting article on prostitution for *Everything You Know is Wrong: The Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies.* She quotes a study by the American National Task Force on Prostitution, which found that only 5%-20% of prostitutes work as streetwalkers; the rest employed in massage parlours or escort services.

She also discussed a study by anti-prostitute feminists Melissa Farley and Norma Hotaling, which found that out of a sample of 130 streetwalkers, 75% had a drug problem, 82% had been physically abused since becoming prostitutes, and 88% wished to leave prostitution. McElroy criticises this study for only examining a small subset of prostitutes, and for self-selecting for those most likely to have suffered from drugs or abuse, as these women would be the most likely to seek help and thus be available for interview.

McElroy did her own study of a group of 34 prostitutes who wanted prostitution legalised or decriminalised. She found that only 29% of this sample had experienced violnce on the job, and this was usually from police or a co-worker. Also, none of them had a drug problem, and only 17% said they wished to leave prostitution. McElroy admits that her own study was itself self-selecting for prostitutes least likely to have a negative experience; I would also criticise it for too small a sample size.

McKay >So - you don't see lending to vulnerable people as being a cause of poverty ?

Vulnerable in what way?

McKay >You don't see drug addiction as being related to poverty either ?

Actually, the impression I get from the media is that most drug users are well-off, professional types with good jobs and homes.

Appolyon, I refer you to post 57, specifically <>

It's kind of like counting illegal immigrants. They don't want to be caught so they're hardly likely to put their hands up when asked.

But in post 55 you're confident enough about proportions to refer to what you seem to know about the nature and lifestyle of 'the vast majority' of prostitutes?

For me, I'd have thought 'vast majority' meant somewhere in the 80-90% range or higher. What does the phrase mean to you?

The best post I ever saw on h2g2 was when TB falsename said that the phrase "approaching 99%" didn't have to mean even 50%.

Well, Appollyon posted figures suggesting street prostitution at 5%. There aren't *that* many massage parlours and escorts, so it follows that the majority are operating the way I suggest.

Strange that statistics and surveys are routinely shredded here and derided as unreliable, but you are looking for data on an illegal activity that women might not even tell their families about.

It might be good if you guys bandying figures with each other referred back to my post 15, and those at the start , where legalising drug and prostitution were linked.

I am not looking here to punish nice suburban Mrs Smith , who may entertain the window cleaner.

I would be more interested to help the women of the title. by removing pimps and drugs ( not entirely I accept) as a way of helping ladies of the night obtain their fixes without the need to provide a service.

I'm also of the mind that decriminalising drugs would benefit us all, by removing the need to steal to pay for them. Furthermore there is always the fact that when something is forbidden , it is fashionably attractive.

Novo

>>"Well, Appollyon posted figures suggesting street prostitution at 5%."

a) Appolyon hadn't posted when you made your estimate. What did you base your estimate on, and what did you mean by 'vast majority'?

b) That was in another country. Figures from the UK, if available, would be even more use, since much can depend on how laws are enforced in different places. In any case, it was one of the three studies Appollyon referred to, and it's not obvious how the study was conducted. I'd *guess* that it might be a meta-analysis of other studies, since the street prostitution figure was given at '5%-20%', which is quite a wide range.
Trying to track down the source of the statistics Appolyon gave on the net, the closest I could get was from what seems to be a related organisation (and bear in mind, this is still the USA).
http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html
>"The ratio of on-street prostitution to off-street (sauna, massage parlor, in call-outcall escort) varies in cities depending on local law, policy and custom. Whereas street prostitution accounts for between 10 to 20% of the prostitution in larger cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York, (3) in some smaller cities with limited indoor venues (or when indoor venues are closed down) street prostitution may account for approximately 50%."


>>"Strange that statistics and surveys are routinely shredded here and derided as unreliable, but you are looking for data on an illegal activity that women might not even tell their families about."

It's not strange that when someone states something as fact ("The vast majority *are*..."), someone else asks what the statement is based on, especially where it's not obvious how figures are obtained. It doesn't mean they're disagreeing with the first person, just that they're interested how they came to their confidence, and possibly in what *other* information might be obtainable from the same source.

It can make some difference to ongoing discussion if someone actually has a fairly reliable source of factual information that other people can be as confident as relying on as they are.

OK, I take your point. Please preface my assertion that most prostitutes are not street walkers with "IMO".

That's fine. I'm sure there are many people who don't work the streets, and who may have less problems than those who do.
If someone's concern is primarily a moral absolutist one, I guess they would be similarly concerned about any sex worker.

If someone is mainly concerned about harm reduction, they're probably more concerned about street workers.
There's still the uncertain issue of what approach might actually lead to the least harm - I guess a theoretical perfect police state which could ensure that prostitution didn't happen at all could solve some problems one way, at the expense of unacceptable other costs. At the other end, a perfectly tolerant society might have a different balance of harms.

McKay prostitution and indeed destitution predates the development of banks. So Seeing the recent trend of the last 50 years tawrds freely available and even "pushing" of consumer credit is, to put it politely, barking mad.

SWL I will not contest your figuers about the differtn ways that prostitutes work as you have not actually produced any. Id just like to point out that they are suppositioin based on a market that deliberately hides itself. You're a bit like one of those spoof Sherlock Holmes' who guesses the the colour of a suspects eyes by the size of his footprints.


Someone said that the women killed in Suffolk would not have been protected by a different approach to prostitution, this is out and out rubbish. Try to understand that they were in a business where most practitiooners are shunned by the general public, where the police view them as a nuisance at best and where it is generally a good idea to keep out of sight of authority. The illegality of prostituion contributes to putting them in danger and continues to put other vulnerable girls and women like them at danger tonight and in nights to come.

If this is not the case you can explian how I am wrong.

Some of other poster bereft of intelligent thought also said all such busines is degrading. No it is not. In the same way that I dont like cucuber and other people happen to like it some people are actualy empowered by being prostitues while an intelligetn woman I know feels shitty about being a lawyer for a "no win, no fee" specialist firm of accident advisers.

Wprst of all is the lie that legalisng prostitution would reduce the number of sex attacks. i have seen nothing to suggest this nor heard anyone with real life experience of being an offender or prostitute who thinks likewise. The two thngs are only linked by sex and illegality. How is an exchange that has been agreed upon going to placate someone who has urges to violently assault someone?

one love

So here's my original post =>

"Whilst there are few studies, early indications would seem to suggest that 70% of prostitutes are addicted to drugs.

The automatic response through legislation is not the answer - remove the drug problem - the prostitution problem practically disappears. If you also acted against the excessive profits made by baks and financial institutions you could probably wipe it out, except for the high class escort end of the market."

So I didn't say that the majority of prostitution was due to debt but due to drugs - of the remaining 30% I suggested most of this was due to debt.

I actually quoted 2 studies that said exactly this however the link police aren't satisfied with that - so :

Firstly here's an American one by Melissa Farley PhD - http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/factsheet.html

Here's one you can leap all over because its from a religous organisation - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Here's one on steet prostitution from Scotland - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/criminal/17543/Response/StreetProst

Here's one about the realities of those "5%" that are dismissed so lightly. - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear the Conservative Party agree with me - http://www.politics.co.uk/issueoftheday/tories-greater-focus-on-causes-prostitution-$368788$367058.htm


Here's a European one - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

And here's another - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Here's a personal story - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4978124.stm

Wiki claims 95% of women in Glasgow working as street prostitutes are addicts - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom

However I did find someone who agreed with you - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=423549&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=322&expand=true

And to end with here's another about sex-trafficing saying that many of the 5,000 plus women providing sexual services in saunas and massage parlours in London have been coerced into the trade.

I could not find one (1) not even a hint of anything to support SWL's fantasy, though I did find a psychological report on sex-addicts.

You know what people I suggest you read all this lot and then go to your local hostel and talk to the girls there - help out at a feeding station, go out with the soup kitchen and talk to the boys and girls you find out there.

To be honest unless some of you are working prostitutes the only person I feel oblidged to answer is Blicky on the grounds that he is probably the only other person here who has met a prostitute as a person.

Sorry I missed the last link - http://mayor.london.gov.uk/assembly/reports/pubserv/prostitution.pdf

One of the Suffolk victims was a neighbour of mine, so I'd met her often, long before I knew of her in those circumstances.

Oh, and an ex had worked previously.

>>"So I didn't say that the majority of prostitution was due to debt but due to drugs - of the remaining 30% I suggested most of this was due to debt."

And you suggested that effectively all the debt problem was the fault of banks.
Sure, no-one could get into actual debt if no-one lent anyone anything, but that would basically screw the entire economy - no mortgages, etc.

Even if people couldn't actually get into *debt*, they could still run out of money - a sudden bill or drop in income means there's no money left to pay for food or clothes for the kids. At the lower income end of the economy, it's pretty unavoidable that that will happen to *some* people at some point, especially since some people are better at handling money than others.

Now, *if* it was the case that, for instance, a significant fraction of the debt driving people to prostitution was down to people being tempted into unnecessary debt by reckless credit card lending, it could certainly be argued that *that* fraction of debt might well be tackled by better control of lending.

However, looking at debt in general and suggesting it's all a matter of bank profiteering seems very simplistic, even to someone who thinks that banks do sometimes charge excessive amounts.

McKay - you are concentrating on the visible part of prostitution, the part where researchers & reporters can stand on street corners and count people. Statistics from arrests and drug rehab centres.

It's easy to look at what you can see and imagine you're seeing the whole. But everyone has their dirty little secrets that they won't even admit to in an anonymous poll.

How many serial killers are there in the UK? Not the ones that have been caught, but are currently active.

How many illegal immigrants are there? Not the ones that have been caught, but the ones that keep their heads down?

How many people fiddle their tax returns by a few quid? Not the ones that are caught, but the ones that get away with it?

What i got from reading those links above all else was the recurring theme that the sale of sex was an out and out bad thing. Yet not one of them said why?

Sex is a commodity, lets make no mistake, you try to find a leaidng newspaper that does not use sexy images on a regular basis where a more nuetral one would do. As a buyer of newspapers I accept this. I accept that Robbie Williams and Serena Williams alike want to project a sexy image at us. Few people seem to have a problem with this yet prsotituion remains subject to puritanical rules.

Rules that mean that as with boing when it was unregultated leaves the people involved in it at the mercy of money driven violent promoters of the business. Im not for a momet suggesting that legalisatino will remove the danger of harm and criminality form the business of selling sex it hasnt for boxing has it, but boxers are a damn sight safer under proper regulation.

one love

I've fallen for the illegal immegrants one before SWL and people leapt all over me, saying the government said it was 50,000 or something stupid - made up entirely of Australian Students who'd out-stayed their visas

The figure I posted got leapt all over - but they're working their way towards it.

Debt - I would humbly suggest that the majority of people tempted into prostitution for financial reasons are not probably the wisest investors. I also feel that financial institutions make obsene profits, and many people are driven to despair, suicide and desperate measures to escape a pit its all too easy to fall into.

You;re right Blicky - they all said it was a bad thing, and I think its generally agreed that slavery is a bad thing - how much of a person's body do you have to sell for them to be a slave - more importantly how much of their self respect do you destroy by treating them as a commodity.

Models think they're the winners, because they get lots of money - it reminds me of an old joke.

This guy is sat opposite a beutifuol woman on the train, he says to her "Listen, you're quite the most ravishing creature I've ever seen, and this is what I'd like to propose. This Friday evening I'll send my chauffeur to pick you up in my Rolls. We'll dine at whichever resteraunt you choose - if we can't get a table I'll buy the restraunt, but to ensure youdon't get cold waiting for dinner I'll provide you with a full length mink coat. That should convince you of the seriousness of my intentions, my chauffeur will then take you home. Next morning we'll go to London and I'll buy you a diamond necklace and a complete new outfit from any designer you choose. After an afternoon spent at a health spa, we'll go out for dinner, then I'll take you back to my apartment and we'll make love beneath the stars in my heated water bed. What do you say ?"

Well the woman is embarrassed and overwhelmed, but she smiles and says yes.

"Great," says the bloke, "How about £10 for a quickie in the toilet right now?"

The woamn is horrified - "What on earth do you mean ! What sort of a woman do you think I am ?"

"Well," says the bloke, "We've already agreed that, now we're just haggling over the price."

The principle is the same.