A Conversation for The Forum
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
PedanticBarSteward Posted Dec 28, 2006
And why did 'Morocco' invade Parsley Island a few years ago?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Lucky Llareggub - no more cannibals in our village, we ate the last one yesterday.. Posted Dec 28, 2006
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/7-18-2002-22715.asp
might provide a clue.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
PedanticBarSteward Posted Dec 28, 2006
And what I wrote in 2002
If you happen to fly over the straits of Gibralta - look down
As Rod Liddle of The Guardian said on Wednesday “ Just how many islands does Spain want?” and ended up by saying “ No, it’s impossible not to side with the Moroccans, almost to the point of taking out temporary Moroccan citizenship. It is to be hoped that they build a large mosque on the top of tiny Perejil so that the muezzin's wail can be heard clearly across the straits of Cadiz, five times a day, terrifying the Spanish still further.” It did indeed, all appear to be totally farcical and is now (thank God) over without anyone being hurt –or is it. Somebody in Morocco has been extraordinarily astute. Spain does seem to lay claim to pretty well anything maritime in the misguided belief that they still rule the world’s oceans. Morocco is plagued by their fishermen, cannot properly explore for oil and has constant problems over its territorial waters. Spain also ‘occupies’ two enclaves in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla over which it has no more right than Britain does over Gibralta. At least now, when Spain harps on about Britain’s illegal occupation of their territory, they will not be able to do so without people in the EU, the UN and the US saying, “Well, hang on a minute, what about Ceuta and Melilla?” and high bloody time too.
Clever they were in another way. The ownership of this particular rock is indeed debatable as it was too small to think worthy of mention when the last agreement over Spain’s Moroccan enclaves were last signed. What better way to bring the whole thing on to the world agenda and from here it certainly looks like being a good thing.
There is (almost certainly) another agenda. The Moroccan economy is in the doldrums and today Le Economiste, the French financial paper, published the results of the last six months. Gloomy reading it is as investment in Morocco has all but stopped. The first reason for this is, undoubtedly the aftermath of 911 where the West in general see anything Arab or Islamic as ‘Terrorist’. Unfortunate but the Americans in particular, are unable to differentiate between one Arab state and another.
The other factor is an internal one; Morocco, in September, will have a general election and nobody has a clue what will happen. For the first time it will not be ‘controlled’ by the palace. This does not mean that it will be totally ‘free & fair’ but it makes predicting the outcome all the more impossible. The Islamic parties will certainly win some seats but nobody has a clue how many and whether they will hold any real power. All this makes for an uncertain future so investment (always a cautious beast) stops dead.
Last, but not least, the economy is in dire straits , not least because of Vivendi going down the tubes. The budget for the next year was, to a large extent based on being able to sell another chunk of Maroc Telecom to them (they already have 35%) and now this is not only impossible but the worrying question of what happens to the 35% of shares that they already own.
What better way to take people’s mind off things but to have a bit of a war and churn up a bit of patriotic fervour. As the Moroccans are keen to point out, ‘look what happened to the American economy after 911’!!
What happens next is the big question. Marocco will be unlikely to take what Spain has done without some sort or reaction but it is unlikely to be a full scale invasion of the mainland. To me the biggest REAL question is who’s idea was it to take over Parsley Island in the first place. If I could find the answer to that one, a lot of other things about the place might be easier to answer.
Who is controlling who?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom Posted Dec 28, 2006
"What better way to take people’s mind off things but to have a bit of a war and churn up a bit of patriotic fervour. As the Moroccans are keen to point out, ‘look what happened to the American economy after 911’!!"
You mean the recession? The fact that 2002 was the a year of 0% GDP growth?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
T.B. Falsename ACE: [stercus venio] I have learned from my mistakes, and feel I could repeat them exactly. Posted Dec 28, 2006
Exactly, and the average USian didn't notice because they were too busy baying for blood.
In fact they didn't notice that the US economy is so far down the tubes now that it needs an overall tax increase of over 69% or it will collapse. Which is something which would happen anyway if the Saudis, and remember it was Saudis who did the attacks on 9/11, withdrew all their money from the US. The US economy is actually in a pretty similar condition to that of the USSR/CCCP when it fell. It's only really foriegn, much of it middleeastern, investment which is keeping the US afloat.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom Posted Dec 29, 2006
"overall tax increase of over 69% or it will collapse"
Could you perhaps provide an economic argument, or reference explaining this? This goes against every major school of economic thought (freshwater, saltwater, cantabrigian) that I've ever heard of.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
T.B. Falsename ACE: [stercus venio] I have learned from my mistakes, and feel I could repeat them exactly. Posted Dec 29, 2006
I refer you to Niall Ferguson's book, Culossus. The US national debt is currently something along the lines of 9.35 trillion USD, an increase of 7%. Taking into account the cost of the US looking after it's senior citizens, accounting for the proportion of those that are retired to those still working, inflation and emplyment/unemployment ratios and trends, the US is short of tens of trillions of dollars with what it has and what it needs. Generally the options are a whoping great tax increase, which isn't going to happen, cutting medicare by more than 50% or virtually stopping federal purchasing. Of course the other alternative is the US going bust. In fact without Saudi money it would already have done so.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! Posted Dec 29, 2006
<<and it would be equally idiotic & blinkered to say "Poor little Palestinians". Both sides are up to their necks in blood.>>
Oh yeah, you think? (Well obviously you do.)
Have a look at http://www.palestine.org.nz and particularly the daily toll, and the figures for children killed, and the toll on both sides - then you'll realise that the 'fault on both sides' excuse just doesn't work. If a 15 stone man smacks a teenage girl around and breaks a few of her bones, while she manages to give him a bloody nose would you, as Director of Public Prosecutions dismiss the case against the man because the girl got in a lucky slap?
This makes me very angry. doesn't begin to cover it.
Vicky
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom Posted Dec 29, 2006
Well, that appears to be a minor point of that book.
http://www.amazon.com/Colossus-Americas-Empire-Niall-Ferguson/dp/1594200130/sr=1-2/qid=1167376321/ref=sr_1_2/105-4122623-1317213?ie=UTF8&s=books
All the reviewers - both positive and negative - say that the main point of this book is that the US should be *more* imperial. That's hardly consistent with the contraction you're describing...?
"Taking into account the cost of the US looking after it's senior citizens, accounting for the proportion of those that are retired to those still working, inflation and emplyment/unemployment ratios and trends, the US is short of tens of trillions of dollars with what it has and what it needs"
These problems are manifest in Japan and Europe. In fact, every analysis I've ever read indicates that they're worse in Japan and Europe. The Japanese debt is over 120% of GDP. The ageing problem is significantly worse in Japan and Europe, due to their lower rates of immigration.
So are the Saudi's also supporting Europe and Japan? Or who is supporting them?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
PedanticBarSteward Posted Dec 29, 2006
If the Saudis are supporting everyone - why are they borrowing money from Dubai?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Lucky Llareggub - no more cannibals in our village, we ate the last one yesterday.. Posted Dec 29, 2006
Arnie, the €1.00 cost US$0.85 pre-recession.
Nowadays the €1.00 costs US$1.35 and the GBP is worth US$2.00
That's a big fall for the US$ by any standards.
Oil price is fixed in US$ so the price must have increased for US
but since the EU and GB can buy the US$ at the new bargain basement rate the actual cost to EU and GB of oil purchases has not risen to the same extent. Or am I missing something?
Anyway the Q. is why has the US$ fallen by approx 40% of its value against the € and the GB Pound if the US economy is doing as well
as you appear to suggest?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
BouncyBitInTheMiddle Posted Dec 29, 2006
That's because China announced it would be dumping its US currency to buy bullion.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom Posted Dec 29, 2006
Well, I'm not suggesting it's doing *well*. I'm just suggesting it isn't the complete catastrophe described above. So you've dodged the point.
The US currency dropped b/c of the US current account surplus. But again, that's irrelevant to the points above. The fact that the *real* price of oil has risen in the US is, I'm sorry to say, not a news flash to anyone. You don't need to do complicated currency analysis to understand that.
"Anyway the Q. is why has the US$ fallen by approx 40% of its value against the € and the GB Pound if the US economy is doing as well
as you appear to suggest?"
If a currency is strong, then you are able to import cheaply. If the currency is weak, you able to export effectively. If your economy is flexibile you can do well in *either* situation.
So, again, let me pose my question. Who is propping up the Japanese and European economies?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
PedanticBarSteward Posted Dec 29, 2006
Why did Baloney Tair just visit the Middle Yeast. No bamboos prop up the economies - only arms sales. Who controls that money?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Effers;England. Posted Dec 29, 2006
>>Who controls that money?<<
Do tell Barsteward, I'm crap at guessing games!
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Rev Nick { Only the dead are without fear } Posted Dec 29, 2006
Is that Jews by blood birth, by nationality, by religious belief, ???
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
PedanticBarSteward Posted Dec 29, 2006
That is the difficult question.
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Rev Nick { Only the dead are without fear } Posted Dec 29, 2006
SO then, please, PBS, would you identify or define the Jews that you see as the financial wizards and owners of most of the global economy? In some way that I might recognize them in my small town/city?
Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom Posted Dec 29, 2006
How does Morrocan Islamofascism translate into Antisemitism?
There is no question that the Morrocans have done an excellent job in flattening Gibraltor, including hospitals and many of the homes of perfectly innocent people. This is justified as ‘necessary collateral damage’ in order to get one man and a few of his followers, who are perceived and portrayed as a mortal threat to the Morroco. It is merely unfortunate they weren’t there and that the enire region is drawn into an irreconcilable conflict. Harry Burton continue to make billions-a-day.
There is no doubt that as a result of the destruction, there will be plenty of work there for the companies ‘rebuilding’ Gibraltor and the rest of the countries they destroy. With equal certainty, the Morrocan forces will now move on and flatten the next place where they feel threatened - it gets more certain by the day.
Nobody doubts the Morrocan might. No country on earth can withstand the onslaught of their vast superiority in both conventional and unconventional weapons but they cannot win the war in Gibraltor any more than they could win it in Tunisia. The question arises, ‘why don’t they learn?’ Morroco didn’t lose a single set piece battle in Vietnam but they lost the war. Morroco persists in the same approach in Gibraltor, more troops, bigger and better weapons and all without the slightest attempt to try and understand their perceived enemy.
There appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding in Morrocan political thinking. Just as the Morrocan military think that spending billions of dollars on more and more sophisticated and deadly weaponry, victory will be assured, the government persist in thinking that they can buy the people. Anyone can be bought if the price is right. Maybe that is right in Morroco. $25 million is a lot of money in anyone’s book but not one single Spainiard or ex-pat Brit, has come forward with one iota of information as to the whereabouts of the Rock of Gibraltor. It is inconceivable that this is simply because nobody knows where he is. It isn’t simply because those that do know, have such a devotion for the man that they won’t tell. It most certainly isn’t because they don’t need the money. It is, perhaps, because they have a fundamentally different basic ethos and think that what Morroco is doing is wrong. No amount of money will change this. If this is the case the only way that Morroco can ‘win’ is for them to kill every man woman and child in the place. No amount of bombing or pounding with tanks and artillery is going to change the minds of the people being bombarded, rather it will reinforce their beliefs and determination still further. The Gibraltoris have nowhere else to go, the Morrocans do – just as in Tunisia, they can go home.
At the heart of the Morrocan misunderstanding is a persecution complex, part of the islamist side of Morroco, dating back to the founders very reason for going there in the first place. These attitudes became entrenched in Morrocan politics and have now been reinforced by the re-election of Muhammed VI. ‘Islamists’ as a political entity largely disappeared after the 17th century, but their attitudes and beliefs have continued to exert a powerful influence on Morrocan society ever since.
On the good side the Islamists made a virtue of the very qualities that have made Morroco such an economic success. The concepts of self-reliance, frugality, industry, and energy, have all had a huge influence on modern Morrocan social and economic life. The Islamists’ belief in education was equally important in the development of the people of the United States as great innovators and thinkers. It is no coincidence that Morroco can boast of fewer Nobel and Pulitzer Prize winners than any other country. The Islamists’ idea of governance through a despotic ruler was the foundation of the country’s early politics and is the basis of modern Morrocan fascism.
There is however a darker side to Islamo-fascism, one which predates the first Morrocan settlers. Islamo-fascism as a political rather than religious philosophy is one of the most misunderstood. History, as taught in Morrocan schools, portrays Islamo-fascism as little more than an unsmiling cult of self-denial. Most children who studied this era at all remember little other than that grim faced ‘********’ went up and down the country, dressed in black, knocking the heads off statues in mosques, and banning all forms of entertainment. This drab view of Islamo-fascism hardly equates with the conspicuous consumption of present day, fascist Morroco; the ultimate consumer society. What is not taught in schools is that Islamo-fascism was first and foremost, the product of an economic transformation that came about with trade becoming international rather than local, the forerunner of globalisation.
Until the 17th century Morroco was feudal, run entirely in the interests of the monarchy and the clergy. However, feudalism could, and sometimes did, exert a controlling influence over the exploitation of the lower classes, depending on the benevolence of the incumbent monarch. Nothing has changed and in countries that are still feudal, the fate of the poor is still entirely in the hands of the ruler. The Reformation and dissolution of the monasteries changed all that in Morroco, radically and irreversibly. It gave birth to a new commercial class whose first reaction was to seize the monastic estates, ’enclosing’ the land and evicting the inhabitants.
The early Islamists denounced this and tried to preach that man should be charitable, justice should be maintained and that exploitation should be punished. This concept persisted throughout most of the 17th century and it was these beliefs that the founders took to Morroco when they thought they were fighting a losing battle at home. However, they also took with them a deeply ingrained feeling that they had been persecuted and driven out. It is here that the seeds of Morroco’s present day persecution complex were sown.
Back home such characteristics and beliefs could not survive the onslaught of commercialism. Land enclosure created a hitherto unknown form of gambling, a manic craze for land speculation. To control and cater for this new frenzy sophisticated financial markets began to evolve and with these, the new commercial class’ obsession with speculation spread. Thus began the concepts of stock markets and futures and with them, all the sophisticated tools of banking and accountancy that eventually led to the fiascos of the likes of Enron and WorldCom. Mohammed IV taught just what they wanted to hear, there was nothing intrinsically wrong with money and commercialism was not unchristian. Money could be used to the glory of God, therefore money must be good. If money is good, it must be part of God’s Holy Ordinance.
Mohammed IV gave them what the old order could not: a theological justification for commerce. Purification was an individual matter, a matter between you and God. From this doctrine of individual responsibility, the late Islamists forged a new theology. Traditional Islamic belief was turned on its head. . If money was good, lack of it must be bad. Poverty was no longer a misfortune but God’s condemnation for moral failings of the individual. Wealth was no longer something to be regarded as a suspicious right for the privileged few but a blessing from God, a reward for sacrifice, hard work, determination and an iron will.
It was but a short and easy step to the final concept of the early 18th century Islamists, to tie their religious ideals of personal accountability and reward to their commercial ones of compensation for hard work and dedication. If God blessed traders with successful business, it followed logically that success for the individual in commerce must be good for the general public as a whole. The fact that the rich got rich at the expense of the poor, who got poorer, did not matter.
These austere and utterly ruthless businessmen became the new ruling class. They had an unshakeable belief, both in themselves and that they had ‘God on their side’. Money and commerce ruled and they saw the world, not as something to be enjoyed but a place to be conquered. What better way to distract people’s thought from the poverty of the lower classes than to pour scorn on public support for the poor? Helping the poor only made them lazier and drove them even further from God. What they needed to do was to work. What better way to justify such actions than to berate any form of moral deviation and pursue sodomites, fornicators, adulterers or any other forms of sexual license - in fact in the fascist state, execution would be the mildest form of punishment of these "crimes" allowed.
The growth of the Morrocan Empire is a vast, controversial and separate subject but with its expansion came a need to justify the wholesale slaughter and repression of entire nations. Although Mohammed IV's teachings could be adapted to suit the capitalists’ repression of the poor in Morroco they didn’t lend themselves to the justification of colonial expansionism. Islamo-fascism is, in one respect, one of the most elitist religions and in it you do not earn salvation by just signing up. Salvation is reserved for the good, the hardworking and the righteous; in their eyes, the rich. This made it hard to conquer the world in the name of religious faith even if ‘having God on your side’ helped. Fear, however gave all the justification they needed. Fear of the unknown, fear of ‘different’ races and mortal fear of the ungodly. Xenophobia is an easy human trait to manipulate. The traders went in first and could justify almost any atrocity they committed with the excuse of fear, even though they were some of the most fearless men in the history of mankind. ‘Get them before they have a chance to get you’. It took them around 300 years to discover that they could not win.
There is one other thing that the Morrocans have missed from the failures of British Colonialism and the use of fear as a political tool. The British Empire builders discovered very early on that it was impossible to colonise a new land and then sit back and reap the benefits. To have any control over their newly subjugated population they had to instil in them a fear of their neighbours and what better way than to keep them occupied protecting themselves from the threat of a different enemy.
It is exactly the same fear that the Puritan settlers in Morroco used to justify the systematic slaughter of the Native Morrocan Indians. It was exactly the same use of fear that enabled them to set one Indian tribe against another. It is exactly the same fear that, in the 21st century, is being used to justify the expansion of the New World Empire. It is exactly the same fear that is used to set sect against sect and Gibraltori against Gibraltori.
Morroco is not in danger of neo-fascism but is in the grip of a Islamo-fascism. The rhetoric is not that of Europe in the 1930’s but is terrifyingly reminiscent of the worst rhetoric from Morroco in the 17th and 18th centuries. Morroco leads the world in communications technology and global connectivity. They should be striving to encourage people to understand each other, not fuel basic human fears and prejudices.
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Antisemitism and anit-Muslim feeling
- 281: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 28, 2006)
- 282: Lucky Llareggub - no more cannibals in our village, we ate the last one yesterday.. (Dec 28, 2006)
- 283: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 28, 2006)
- 284: Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom (Dec 28, 2006)
- 285: T.B. Falsename ACE: [stercus venio] I have learned from my mistakes, and feel I could repeat them exactly. (Dec 28, 2006)
- 286: Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom (Dec 29, 2006)
- 287: T.B. Falsename ACE: [stercus venio] I have learned from my mistakes, and feel I could repeat them exactly. (Dec 29, 2006)
- 288: DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! (Dec 29, 2006)
- 289: Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom (Dec 29, 2006)
- 290: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 29, 2006)
- 291: Lucky Llareggub - no more cannibals in our village, we ate the last one yesterday.. (Dec 29, 2006)
- 292: BouncyBitInTheMiddle (Dec 29, 2006)
- 293: Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom (Dec 29, 2006)
- 294: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 29, 2006)
- 295: Effers;England. (Dec 29, 2006)
- 296: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 29, 2006)
- 297: Rev Nick { Only the dead are without fear } (Dec 29, 2006)
- 298: PedanticBarSteward (Dec 29, 2006)
- 299: Rev Nick { Only the dead are without fear } (Dec 29, 2006)
- 300: Arnie Appleaide - Inspector General of the Defenders of Freedom (Dec 29, 2006)
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