h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

But where do you stop? If, for example, you stop BNP members becoming teachers (wouldn't really want racism proliferated through our schools), does that mean all education workers must be veted? As such, would obviously Marxist university lecturers also be asked to give up their jobs? You can't single out one single organisation, you'd have to target people with non-mainstream views at both ends of the political spectrum, and then you have to work out where to draw the line.

<<"I can walk down the same street and see a Muslim frothing at the mouth about Islam.

I live in an area with a relatively high density of Muslims and yet Ive never, ever seen this happen. Ive seen "race riots", Ive seen huge crowds of football hooligans, Ive seen someone stabbed to death in a brawl outside a pub...in short I end up in some scary places but even when I do I dont cover up my eyes. Yes, Ive seen religious zealots of most cloths having a good rant in the high streets and other public areas but frothing at the mouth...please go easy on the poetic licence. >>

I'd just like to add to this by saying that in every large city I've visited I've seen white British Christians of various types 'frothing at the mouth' (figuratively as opposed to literally) and preaching hate, I've yet to see a Muslim do the same... yet the tabloids would have us believe that there's one on every street corner.

Firstly I'm a Celt.

In today's world is in the concept of indiginous valid ?

I'd like to think we live in a country where your background is irrelevent to your everyday life.

Religion is a bit of non-starter on that front, unless we're going to try and claim you have to be CofE to be British, a Johnny-Come-Lately religion if ever there was one. (Though I suppose Mammon has been about for a while.)

Blicky - you see less Indian/Asian footballers in this country because they are discouraged from continuing it. A friend of mine was on CCFC's books, but when he turned 18 it was off to university son - you're going to be a lawyer, not a stupid sportsman. (He hates it, incidently)

Now about these Wolves fans you're promoting equal rights for.....

<>

Umm... the ancient Celtic culture is a 17th Century invention... it never existed. Nobody has ever been a Celt.

You're just saying that because you're an Umpa-Lumpa.

Oompa-Loopma Doompady-Elt
There's never been an ethnically homogeneous culture of Celts.
Oompa-Loompa Doompady-Ict
However, I'm reasonably safe in assuming that I'm at least part Pict.

"But where do you stop? If, for example, you stop BNP members becoming teachers (wouldn't really want racism proliferated through our schools), does that mean all education workers must be veted?"

All education workers are vetted already in terms of criminal records checks and (I think) health screening. I don't think there's necessarily a need for a similar check on racism or some secret MI5 style background check. Perhaps just excluding those known to be BNP members should be enough.

"[W]ould obviously Marxist university lecturers also be asked to give up their jobs? You can't single out one single organisation, you'd have to target people with non-mainstream views at both ends of the political spectrum"

No, I don't think you would. The question is not one of seeking to exclude people whose political beliefs are radical or non-mainstream just because we don't like their views. It's whether those views are incompatible with the job that they are supposed to be doing. A racist teacher or lecturer would most likely treat students differently in prejudicial and unjustified ways based upon their racist beliefs. That's incompatible with the duty of a teacher to give equal weight to the interests and needs of her pupils. I'm not sure why a Marxist teacher could be incompatible in the same way.

"and then you have to work out where to draw the line."

Quite so - and this will not be easy. But the fact that it's hard to draw the line shouldn't stop us, IMO, from acting when there are clear cases. It might be hard to decide what to do about (e.g) someone who had racist views in the past, or who was a BNP member but applying for a job where there wasn't clear incompatibility. But that shouldn't stop us from excluding jackbooted frothing-at-the-mouth neo-Nazis from joining the police force.

Culture - that's something you get on yoghurt.

Red hair - white skin - freckles - brown eyes - and a flaming great sword - thats what you get on a Celt.

Picts ? So you admit you're short, black-haired, and have orange skin from the other side of the family.

I admit nothing of the sort... that way I get to keep an air of mystery.

Anyway, I've gotta go... Mr. Wonka needs us to work flat out this close to Christmas.

>>
Umm... the ancient Celtic culture is a 17th Century invention... it never existed. Nobody has ever been a Celt.
<<

Are you taking the piss, or is there something there to explain further?


>>
There's never been an ethnically homogeneous culture of Celts.
<<

What does homogeneity have to do with it?

*

McKay, the reason that the concept of indigenous has relevance in today's world is because there are vast numbers of people on the planet who identify themselves as indigenous. Were you unaware of this?

But education workers *are* discriminated against if they are judged to be racist. There was a high profile case of a university lecturer who was hounded from his post a few years ago for saying something contentious. A few months ago, Trevor Phillips either repeated the same line or admitted the lecturer was right. So it would appear that racism is relative and changes over time.

Have you wandered into the wrong thread SWL?

Are education workers now considered to be indigenous peoples?

Although I am prone to the odd senior moment, no- I'm in the right thread

I was referring to Otto's post "If, for example, you stop BNP members becoming teachers "

>>There was a high profile case of a university lecturer who was hounded from his post a few years ago for saying something contentious. A few months ago, Trevor Phillips either repeated the same line or admitted the lecturer was right. So it would appear that racism is relative and changes over time.<<

That post is almost meaningless to me. What was the high profile case? What did the lecturer say? What on earth are you on about?

Not aware of that case.

There is this one, though. In the end, Frank Ellis took early retirement instead of taking disciplinary action.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/racism/story/0,,1738570,00.html

"The central point is that you want people ostracised because of their thoughts. You seem entirely unable to conceive that millions of people keep their personal opinions to themselves in the work situation.


Very, very wrong, SWL.

ostracise
1. to exclude, by general consent, from society, friendship, conversation, privileges, etc.: His friends ostracized him after his father's arrest.
2. to banish (a person) from his or her native country; expatriate.
3. (in ancient Greece) to banish (a citizen) temporarily by popular vote.

If you had bothered to read my journal entry I linked to you'd have seen that I dont do any of those things you talk about. If you have read it you are to thick to understand that I dont do them or you have read my journal understood it adn the meaning of *ostracise* and are just trying to defame me with lies, please dont.



"Overall, it would also appear that you are in favour of a totalitarian state which interferes in everything that every citizen does, right down to what they think.



Just give a few examples please because *overall* Ive posted lots of things here and do lots of things in real life Id just be interested to know which bits of my thinking and practice are pro-totalitarian.


"Being a member of the BNP is not illegal.

Yay! You got something right, how does that feel?



"Going down the route you support will just lead to the BNP becoming more extreme.

Do you even know how extreme they are? Have you read their manifesto? You should give it a go.



"This govt has banned numerous political and religious organisations, with absolutely no effect. What you propose will only decrease BNP membership but in all likelihood increase their vote.

You say all this based on what evidence or argument?

Why not pop down to the High St (dodging the foamy mouthed Immams and po into you local to ask the people denied entry visas for being members of banned organisations if the laws you talk about have had "absolutely no effect"...Or write a letter asking a banned organisation if the laws banning these organisations have had "absolutely no effect" on their fund raising, ability to have bank acounts, have registered addresses or use most of the organisational apparatus available to everyone else....if you can find an address to write to that is.

In a western democracy the only example in can think of a political party having its members and sympathisers vocational and commercial activities circumscribed is MCcarthyism in the US and as we all know the communist party in America went from strength to strength didnt it.


"You can't fight an idea by banning it. It doesn't go away when you hide your head in the sand.

Only a complete idiot would think so and that's why I dont think either of these things.



"Instead of decrying people who join the BNP, would it not be better to ask why they're joining the BNP.

Thnaks for the advice but your about 10 years late,that's what I already do...read my journal.


"In various threads around here I think we've all agreed that racism is not as rife as it once was.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I have not agreed anything of the like so its not ALL of us is it? (what were you saying earlier about burying heads in the sand?)


Barring some people from some jobs is not ostracising them. You need to get a dictionary and work this one out.


one love

<<>>
Umm... the ancient Celtic culture is a 17th Century invention... it never existed. Nobody has ever been a Celt.
<<

Are you taking the piss, or is there something there to explain further?>>

No. I'm not. There was never a Celtic culture. There were Gauls, Britonni, &c. but it wasn't until the 17th Century that the term 'Celt' was applied as a catch-all term to these peoples.


I'll consult my sources this evening and offer a better explanation.

I have to ask though... what makes you think I was taking the piss?

I'll address more of your points later Blicky, but in the meantime

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1821682,00.html

shows that banning groups just leads to them changing name and starting again.

And Communists were very effectively denied employment in certain areas in the 70s and 80s.

Throwing somebody out of their job, one that they perhaps have pursued a university education and career path to attain, purely because of their private beliefs, is effectively ostracisation. The head of RIBA for example. WTF has racism to do with architecture?

So I'm presuming SWL you do not sympathise with a teacher being thrown out of their job for sympathising with extremist Islamist ideology that condones suicide bombing?

Personally I consider the BNP ideology on a par with extremist Islamist. Both are forms of Fascism in my book. And anyone admitting to Facist beliefs should be denied a job as a teacher.