A Conversation for The Forum

September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 21

Acid Override - The Forum A1146917

Not completely, but I am left with the feeling that both govorments (I am thinking of our own govornment across the puddle) could be a lot more open. Allow politicians from opposition parties to put the report/investigation team together - if there is nothing to be hidden then they won't find anything no matter how unfriendly.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 22

Blackberry Cat , if one wishes to remain an individual in the midst of the teeming multitudes, one must make oneself grotesque

Great idea. We could have an independent inquiry headed by a judge. We all know how much they discover smiley - laugh. Mind you I think it highly unlikely this was a conspiracy. If it was then wouldn't they have found "evidence" linking Saddam to the terrorists and suggesting he was about to supply them with chemical and biological weapons.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 23

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

I'd like to know how many buts have been kicked because of this catastrophy. If anything the "liberal" cause has been negated and the "right" hardened; the security services reformed. Conspiracy theory sells. Anything that sells gets made.
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 24

Noggin the Nog

If there was a conspiracy those responsible aren't likely to allow a genuinely independent enquiry.

And if there wasn't a conspiracy they aren't likely to want the currently unanswered questions about who knew what, when, and what they did (or more importantly didn't) do about it to be answered for fear of revealing their stupidity and incompetence.

Noggin


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 25

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

That's the problem with any institutional anomaly.
You need a whistle blower or a dedicated journalist.
Not many of either about...shame.
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 26

anhaga

Just for interest sake:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/031025/w102556.html

"U.S. leaders offering their people war without end"

'Given the chance to talk with the U.S. defence secretary, one solider asked what was on the minds of many: when will the worldwide fight against terrorism be over?

"I mean, should I get my three-year-old ready for air-assault school?" the soldier asked Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld during an Iraq tour last month.

"I wish I could give you a date but I can't," Rumsfeld said. '

'Privately, U.S. administration officials have said for months they see the anti-terrorism fight as a decades- long struggle similar to the Cold War that dominated the second half of the 20th century. '


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 27

There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho

It's less than 20 years since the cold war ended, less than 20 years of relative world peace (barring individual disputes around the world).

I think it says a lot about human nature, and reams about the nature of right wing thinking that we're now into another 'endless' war.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 28

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

During one of many heated, to them, disputes with my "everso kind" neihbours the police were called.

Jokingly I said to a young policewoman..."What's up..I thought the cold war was over"

Her eyes drifted and her voice lowered. "No. No it's not" She said.
The little fracas continued.

any clues?
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 29

Noggin the Nog

Good point, Gosho.

Military expenditure on the scale of the US's *needs* a continuous war to justify it. But why does the US *need* military expenditure on this scale?

Noggin


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 30

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

To stop flks running drugs in ex soviet subs mate...simple!
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 31

anhaga

"flks"


funny looking kids? Funny looking kids are trying to run drugs in ex-soviet subs? smiley - weird


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 32

Z

What sort of government would want uneccascelly high military expenditure smiley - erm or indeed any sort of expenditure?


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 33

Mister Matty

"And if there wasn't a conspiracy they aren't likely to want the currently unanswered questions about who knew what, when, and what they did (or more importantly didn't) do about it to be answered for fear of revealing their stupidity and incompetence."

More than that, Bush didn't have the guts to deal with the incompetence that probably caused 9/11.

People are so used to seeing movies where CIA are either supercool agents who can deal with any problem or evil-geniuses who can manipulate the world to their will that they tend to ignore what the truth suggests. That they are a fairly poor secret-service who just happen to serve a rich superpower. The list of CIA blunders is enormous (the laughable attempts to assassinate Castro, the use of decade-old map of Belgrade during the 1999 war, the failure to predict the fall of the Berlin Wall or the dissolution of the Soviet Bloc (they apparently saw it on TV, same as the rest of us)) and it's highly probable that they screwed up over 9/11. Did Bush deal with the CIA, did he clean house and hire fresh blood? No, he just added another layer to an already bloated secret service.

Why? Because he's a pretty bad leader and probably doesn't want to upset the CIA. Weak leaders like Bush are easily manipulated, easily give in to pressure and don't like rocking the boat. Bush has shown all these tendencies and I always see him as this simpleton sitting in the oval office surrounded by people with agendas whispering into his ear. This is one reason that the USA is stalling in Iraq. A strong leader would have looked at the situation and found a solution (patch things up with Germany and France, appeal to the UN, agree to some demands) to secure long term aims. Instead Bush seems all over the place, tugged this way and that by the nationalists who still want to believe that America can do this "alone" despite the evidence that they cannot and the internationalists who want him to bring his allies into play.

There are many things America still needs to do to have a hope of bringing it's "war" to a conclusion and one of these is to have intelligent, strong and non-ideological leadership and Bush simply won't provide that.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 34

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

A compelling argument.
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 35

anhaga

Goodness. I'm finding myself pretty much in agreement with Zagreb. Goodness.


smiley - smiley


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 36

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

Never thought I'd see you either Hanger. What's your wittering about today..you stuck on the word ANALOGY or what? Your "ologies" were thereabouts, what's up?
Oetz


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 37

His Nibbs

I apologise if this is off the topic a smidgen,

but,

Conspiracy Theories - These seem like the thing we have now to replace religion. We want an answer. We want someone or something to be behind it all because we are frightened of the answer if there isn't anyone behind it.

If it is just random stuff, and people reacting to it. We are seeing pattern in the complexity, like faces in clouds, because we are predisposed to do so. We make up connections in hindsight because its easier than making them up from facts as we see them now.

It's Einstein's "God does not throw dice" thing, he refused to countenance a universe where it didn't follow rules you could predict. Quantum theory says we can't be sure of anything, and so we can't totally accurately predict anything either. Maybe We'll come to terms with the idea over the next century, like Darwinism took over from Creationism?

I read recently that most of the thinking of the Middle Ages & renaissance was done drunk. The people who got on, were the ones who could hold their ale.

Wars and pogroms, all because the drinking water wasn't good on it's own, but the brewing process took the more fatal bugs out of it. Life is random, get used to it.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 38

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

Good point


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 39

Acid Override - The Forum A1146917

Re:Alchohol
That was only in some areas. Drinking water was not pure, but alchohol was generally better. Many nations cottoned onto this idea and used an awfull lot of alchy.

Some (in my opinion more pragmatic) nations realised that you could just boil the water and attain a similar level of purity. Thats why people with western ancestors can generally hold more than those with eastern ones - there was an evolutionary advantage to being able to hold alchy in the west (because we were too stupid [or too drunk] to boil water)

Kinda reminds me of the Americans devising a pen to write in space. The research cost tens of thousands of dollars, but the work paid off and eventually a pen was devised that could write in space so their astronaughts would be able to take notes instead of memorising everything. A marvelous advantage in the space race!

The russians used a pencil.


September 11th: was it on Bush's agenda?

Post 40

Oetzi Oetztaler....Anti Apartheid

Why use trafficators when you can stick your hand out?


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