h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

..whats the point of that? all you'd need to do would be get A Lemon Juice Rifle and you'd beat it hands down!

Next you'll be advocating Pepper Grenades or Mayo Knives or even Cranberry Swords!

*sniggers*

But what if you need the cholestorol?

Exactly. You should think things through more carefully.

the SA 80 Assult Weapon killed my son. The M O D told ud he had comitted suicide, yet his friends told us that was untrue the Fireing pin was faulty and the weapon was prone to self loading if you dropped the weapon it would fire.
The Mod say he still comitted Suicide, they say he had been drinking heavly prior to taking up his duty, I waited for three years before I got the Autopsy report for which I had to fight Tooth and nail for, there was no sign of any form of Alcohol in my sons blood, there was not even an asprin.
Also the hole in his head had moved from the front to the back, now they have told me to go away.
My sons death happened in 1992, and I begged them to remove the weapons before it killed anyone elses child, they said I was a neurotic mother and they sympathised at the death of my son, but they declared that the SA 80 was the safest weapon in the Field. 140 dead soldiers later, and nine years after my sons death, they admit this weapon is faulty. I now intened to sue the Makers of this Weapon!

What can I say? I'm incredibly sorry.

Unfortunately, and aside from the obvious (and intended) purpose of the manufacture of firearms, modern weapons - as safe as they are - do cause a large number of unintentional casualties, another example being the US. Navy Seals, who - a few years back - had several handguns explode whilst being used during training.

If the intended purpose of a firearm is unethical, what happens by accident is even less acceptable. We can only hope for a brighter future in which the use of weapons isn't necessary.

Once more, and as much as it doesn't help (or really say anything), I'm very sorry. My sympathies to you.





- Njan.

That's a dreadful story - and I certainly feel very sorry for you.

I thank you so much for your reply, it really sticks in my throat to know that the MOD knew this weapon was a walking death machine for our boys, way back in 1986, and did nothing.

I think that one of the things particularly driving the recent redesign of the rifle was the fact that it behaves somewhat strangely when you drop it - but I'm not certain...

...I'll see if I can find out. Can't promise anything though.

Krans, thank you so very much every morsel of information is of great value to myself and remaining two children.

Subj: Re: Advice
Date: 08/Mar/02 1:00:57 AM Central America Standard Tim
From: [email protected]


This was a reply from a Lawyer here in the USA.



I am sorry to hear about the death of your son.

Regarding your request for a review of your son's death I must tell you the following points:

1. I don't provide professional opinions on the basis of anyone's particular view of the
incident. I require all the relevant physical evidence reports and/or photos available.

2. There are many cases which cannot simply cannot be determined. This means that after a
review of the available evidence, it may not possible to make a firm conclusion regarding the
manner of death.

3. If you are truly serious about having an analysis performed, you must be prepared and
willing to accept a suicide determination -- if that is where the facts take me.

4. My minimum fee for case review is $2,500.

I realize how difficult it must be to have to bear the death of a child. Please accept my
sympathies.


Alexander Jason

Senior Certified Crime Scene Analyst


Thursday, March 07, 2002, 18:21:05, you wrote:

> Dear Sir, my name and I reside in the state Of California, I
> am however Scottish.
> Ten years ago in April 1992, my Son who was Twenty years old at the
> time was serving with the British Armed forces.
> Now, this is where I am looking for advice, the Military say he Committed
> suicide whilst on duty, they advised me that he had placed the barrel of an
> SA80 semi automatic weapon under his tongue and fired.
> It seemed impossible to believe as he had been such a Sunny lad, but I wasn't
> there at the time and I do know that you can never tell what goes through a
> persons mind, even if it is one of your own.
> How ever when I gotHome there were some things that did not quite match
> up. (ie)I had been told that the exit wound was on the top of his head, it
> wasn't it was at the base of the Skull, there were no powder burns anywhere
> on him, but again I am not an expert.
> I laid my son to rest and continued to ask what went wrong.
> The Military Refused me a copy of the post Mortem report, saying it would
> only upset me to know that my son had been drinking heavily prior to taking
> up his duty.
> Needless to say I was not going to leave it at that, so for three years I
> fought Tooth And Nail the best that I knew how.
> Finally with the threat of me talking to the media they relented, and I was
> given the Report.
> My son had been found resting against a Bollard with the weapon wedge between
> his thighs and the Barrel resting below his chin, the Doctor who attended the
> scene stated quite clearly that the wound was on top of my sons head.
> However the pathologist states and I quote "It would appear that the weapon
> had been placed underneath the tongue with a round hole underside and a
> jagged hole on top of the tongue, passing through the soft pallet and exiting
> at the base of the skull, also the blood analyses states no alcohol was found
> in my sons body, nor were there any powder burns nor any sign of powder
> indicating as to whether my son had fired this weapon or not.
> This weapon has been withdrawn from use while modifications are made to the
> 27 faults found, his friends say no way my boy did it, they knew in 1992, that
> this weapon was a danger.
> Can you help me in asserting as to whether my son did commit suicide or was
> this an accident, I just need to find closure

I was refused Photos, as was my then lawyer and no one wants to take a chance, so this is now my Battle, I am determind to find out what did happen to my son, one way or an other if he did do it I must accept that conclusion, but if he did not?

The weapon was never withdrawn from use - they've now gradually started to upgrade them.

I'm not convinced that employing a lawyer in the US is a good idea - it might be better to find a lawyer in the UK who might have more contacts that will be able to unearth something...

But I hope you have a lot of luck. You deserve some.

I work in the armed forces, and my life can and in the past has relied on my weapon. Although the weapon has in the past had its problems (ie magazines falling out, jammages) the improved version and the older versions are safe, if the correct drills are used.


All british troops have extensive training before being let loose with a weapon, and saftey is allways the main emphasis.


At the end of the SA-80 has recieved a lot of stick from the media, and a lot of it is undue. It still remains to be an acurate, lightweight and compact weapon system which our troops have to have trust in if they are to operate fucntionaly. I believe, that the SA80 performs as can be expected of such a weapon, as well as can be expected.


CPL, 2BN PARACHUTE REGIMENT

"if the correct drills are used".

To be fair, that can be applied to anything. Given the correct drills, a nuclear war is perfectly safe - all you have to do is sit in a concrete bunker under non-porous soil with a lifetime's supply of food.

Although the rifle is perfectly good (and indeed shoots very well given the right circumstances), the "right circumstances" would be a more correct synonym for "if the correct drills are used". Given another assault rifle (the AUG, the sig552, or the M16), not only would the rifle work in the presence of favourable conditions and the right drill, it'd work if you threw it in a stream, dragged it over gravel, filled it with mud, and threw it through the air.

Even a recently-manufactured LSW fails to work having been dragged through 100m of gravel and mud (after being "shot", on exercise) where other weapons might work. All in all, it isn't just working when it's supposed to work which makes a good and reliable weapon... it's working when it's NOT.

I now understand the the reports coming back from Afghanistan seem to suggest that the SA-80 is not only useless in combat or tranining in that climate but its also a danger to the troops asked to use it.
It`s once again rated as the worst weapon avaialable.

The Cpl here is correct. Yes if you drop the SA-80 it will move the rotating bolt. But it should not fire if the safety is on. Quite simply there is a piece of metal in the way, the mechanism will not release the hammer until this piece of metal has worked.

Why was his weapon locked and loaded, was he on a Op Tour. Normally a round is not in the breech of the weapon. This depends on alert states and where you are in the world, but normally the weapon just has a magazine on in case!

I, have dropped my weapon before with out a magazine on and it did "Cock" but the hammer stayed back and the weapon did not misfire.

I am in no way saying that you are wrong in your suggestion of the incident, and you deserve a straight answer, but it does seem strange.

This is true, a simple consequence of a combination of inertia and gravity, and the fact that the weapon, when dropped, won't fire is another true statement. Unfortunately, the press likes very much to pick up and run with ideas which lead to better sales, which is what leads to "controversies" such as the fabled millenium dome, which was, it must be noted, a tory project started 15 years ago; placing the blame on an incompetant present government is hardly fair. (Especially since the tory party under the leadership of William Hague did more sh*tstirring than anyone).

This is not to say, by any stretch of semantics, that every incident involving a soldier and a rifle is the fault of the soldier. However, the sad facts that people do jump to conclusions, and the media has far more influence than it should, do apply. Therefore, an open mind should be kept whilst trying to ascertain what, exactly, went wrong in any of the cases in point.

The fault here is hardly just that of the press alone, however. Even taking the recent case of the soldier who was, reportedly, shot in the chest five times (an accident attributed either to suicide or a dropped weapon, I forget), the information forthcoming to the media and the parents of the soldier from the MoD is pathetic: the MoD, in true British style, consider information to be classified unless considered otherwise, and in all of the cases of which I've read (even taking into account the unreliability of the press) the MoD seem to have comported themselves in a manner which - if not indicating guilt - certainly doesn't help to ratify their side of the truth. A soldier with five bulletholes in the chest, it seems to me, can not simply have dropped his weapon or shot himself. Having seen (and handled) an automatic weapon of the sort in question, it would be extremely challenging to put five rounds through one's own chest (especially with a bullpup rifle) deliberately. Fault of the weapon, therefore, would require not only the rifle to be in the right position, but subjected to stressors which would cause it to fire, and gunshot residue from having fired the weapon from such close range would almost certainly render a verdict self-evident. In any case, whether the soldier were shot deliberately or accidentally, there is nothing here which can, legitimately, hidden. Therefore, why the secrecy?

Certainly something is amiss, but this is not something which can be resolved by the press, by being accusatory, or by blaming what is, ultimately, a collection of pieces of metal and plastic.

In common with researcher 198.., I have also dropped a weapon, both in an unloaded state and cocked & loaded with live ammunition (safety on), and on neither occasion did I suffer, other than by being shouted at.

It is universally true that those who have been involved in incidents of these sorts deserve straight answers, but I question where the faults lie which cause them not to get these.

Ooo, a Para .

If the change lever was set to automatic, and it is possible for a round to misfire when the rifle is dropped (which I am not sure about), then it doesn't require a huge stretch of the imagination for five or more rounds to discharge as well.

I am a firm supporter of the SA80 IW - I have never had a single stoppage on it (that's the A1) - although admittedly my experiences are limited to Scotland, not to the Falklands, Afghanistan or Columbia. I hear all these rumours, read all these stories, and am not sure what to believe.

I'm sure our friends at the MOD have their reasons for keeping hush-hush about embarassing occurences, but sometimes they can go too far.