h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I would like to add one or two addendums to this, and although I am no expert, it is something which interests me.

I didn't get the feeling that the distintion between Brythonic Celtic and Goidelic Celtic was emphasised enough. Irish Gaelic is similar in many ways to Scots Gaelic and the now defunct language of Manx. Scots Gaelic is not a completely separate language as emphasised in your entry. In the same way, Welsh, Breton, and Cornish are similar languages and share similar customs. However, there are big differences between Gaelic and Brythonic, strongly indicating two completely different invasions of Britain and Ireland. It is widely believed that Brythonic originated from France (i.e. Gaul), whereas Goidelic may have originated from Spain.

Also, the article did not take an opportunity to talk sufficiently about the significance of the Celtic language in the names we use for our countries today. The Britons (who gave their name to the island of Britain) were Celtic, and they spoke Brythonic. They were displaced to Wales and the extremities of Britain when the Saxons arrived. In Gaelic, the pejorative word "Sasanach" for Englishman derives from the word "Saxon".

Similarly, the word Gall (Gaul) crops up all over Europe, from Galicia in Spain, to Galway in Ireland, to Galatia in Turkey. Some authors believe that "Gaul" and "Celt" are actually the same word.

What I think is most interesting is that the languages, once everywhere in mainland Europe, were completely obliterated apart from the western fringes. Not even a hint of them remain anywhere, even in regions where local languages thrive. Why were the Celtic languages not strong enough to survive under Roman Empire, Germanic rule, or Slavonic rule? Although I can guess the answer, I would love to know the whole story.

CR

"I didn't get the feeling that the distintion between Brythonic Celtic and Goidelic Celtic was emphasised enough. Irish Gaelic is similar in many ways to Scots Gaelic and the now defunct language of Manx. Scots Gaelic is not a completely separate language as emphasised in your entry. In the same way, Welsh, Breton, and Cornish are similar languages and share similar customs. However, there are big differences between Gaelic and Brythonic, strongly indicating two completely different invasions of Britain and Ireland. It is widely believed that Brythonic originated from France (i.e. Gaul), whereas Goidelic may have originated from Spain."

I could be wrong, but I'm going to give you my theories...

Around 4000BC, I think, there were two main groups of Celts. You had the Ibericelts and the Gauls. The Ibericelts originally settled Ireland (The Milesians, according to legend, after conquering the Fir Bolg and Tuatha De Dannan, but that's just legend and can't be proven), and then eventually moved to Scotland and the Isle of Man. Because of these isolations, the differences in the Gaelics developed. Manx, I always got the impression, was vastly different from Irish and Scot's. Scot's Gaelic is very close to the Irish dialect spoken in Ulster, which might suggest a number of things.

The Gauls probably fled to Britain during the Gallic Wars. Perhaps the area of France that's known today as Brittany wasn't conquered completely. The Saxons invaded, and because the three groups were isolated in Cornwall, Wales, and Brittany, the three languages developed.

So, in all, I think the Gaelics may have come from Iberia, while the other three Celtic languages came from Gaul, and that's where the division first happened.

Of course, I don't know a whole lot, and haven't been studying any of this for more than two years, so I could very well be wrong.

~Sirona

Yes, thats pretty much as I understand it, although my understanding is that the Gauls were assimilated into the Roman empire as opposed to fleeing it. The same was the case for the Britons. It was the Saxons and Franks who were responsible for the killer blows for the Celtic languages in those countries. I could be wrong though! Photographic memory was never one of my strong points!

CR

Well, I just thought that perhaps, when the Romans took over, there was a part of Gaul they failed to take. They didn't take Britain until awhile later, I thought, so there might have been time for them to flee there. And perhaps, hidden away somewhere in the woods, a group of them preserved their own culture to some degree...

Just a thought.

~Sirona

You haven't read Asterix by any chance? Thats the whole assumption of that particular comic - that there was a part of Gaul the Romans failed to take:

"50 B.C. Gaul is entirely occupied by the Romans.
Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the Romans. And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium."

That sets the scene. Have a look at
[URL removed by moderator]
Asterix is just a comic book character and is not based on a historical (or even mythical) character like Cuchullain or Fionn MacCumail but yet is more famous, and has become part of the culture of France. He even has his own theme park outside Paris!

Ed

Er, apparently they removed the URL... would you send it to me at [email protected] ? (I finally created an account for H2G2 use)
~Sirona

Since you are aiming to give such an erudite post, I am very surprised that you refer to Manx as "defunct".

There has been a continuous line of Manx speakers since antiquity, and the language is still alive on the Island, although until recent years it looked like it was going into a terminal decline.

The English forced posession of the island with the Revestment Act , which threw many of the indigenous people into poverty, led many of the Manx people to leave the Island for the new world, and this was probably one of the main factors which led to the decline of the language. Cultural pressure from the English administration, mass tourism and immigration further contributed to the process, but Manx was still spoken well into the 20th Century, when a revival of interest began to take place. The last "Native" (i.e. with Manx as a first language) speaker died early in the 20th century, but thanks to the efforts of speakers and the Manx Language Society, it continues to be spoken daily.

The cultural pressures and social constraints that were imposed by outsiders in earlier times, including punishing school children who had the gall to speak their own langauge, were no longer present in the late 20th Century, and a rise in national pride and identity finally gave the right conditions where the language could begin to grow again.

Despite the curent wave of mass immigration inspired by the Island's status as a tax haven, there is still considerable interest in the language. Manx is taught in schools, and pre-school gaelic-medium education is available. For adults, the interest in Manx is sustained by classes, radio programmes, computer-based training and the internet, and it continues its small growth in the community despite the different cultural pressure that the global consumer culture is imposing on a new generation.

Manx is still alive - Gaelg Vio !

David Crystal gives a good history in the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Language. Goidelic and Brythonic are the result of two invasions of the British Isles. The first invasion he reckons as 4th century BC.

The influence of Latin on Brythonic is not widely discussed here: numerous welsh words such as pont for bridge, cefyll for horse etc indicate that Brythonic at least co-opted a large Latin vocabulary, or even could be considered a hybrid.

No mention of the Patagonian Welsh speakers? tut-tut!

I was pleased to return to the Isle of Man about 4 years ago and find that they now have a Manx primary school. Looks like the old language, though thrown about a bit, is beginning to stand again.